[DaveC113]

I've "listened" to cables, and sometimes it has made a noticeable difference, and sometimes it did not.

I have several sets of speaker cable and 2 amps. One is Tripath, the other is an el34 SET amp. Speaker cables are capable of changing the character of the Tripath amp to a very noticeable degree, but the differences are much more subtle with the tube amp. I also believe this difference is simply the amp's reaction to driving a cable that has different capacitance and inductance. I do not know enough to explain why, but it is well known that amps can become unstable driving a high capacitance cable. Logically, I would expect cables of different capacitances to sound different using an amp that is so sensitive, and I would expect an amp that is capable of driving a high capacitance cable to be less affected by the speaker cables used.

It doesn't seem logical to say cables can't make a difference, when it's obvious they do. Whether or not you hear it or have the brainpower to understand it is another question.

[trebejo]

It doesn't seem logical to say cables can't make a difference, when it's obvious they do. Whether or not you hear it or have the brainpower to understand it is another question.

"Brainpower". Ahem... what was that remark about people becoming dismissive, etc.? 

[DaveC113]

"Brainpower". Ahem... what was that remark about people becoming dismissive, etc.? 

I could have phrased that better. Read into it what you will though...

[trebejo]

I could have phrased that better. Read into it what you will though...

Ok, good, we agree on that. 

[modular747]

Whether or not you hear it or have the brainpower to understand it is another question.

Another typical reaction proving the point of my post.  You are unable to comprehend that what you "hear" is influenced by factors other than the acoustic field your ears and body are exposed to, and rudely reject out of hand what you don't, and don't want to understand. 

If you really can reliably hear the difference between cables,  you would at least be able to reliably identify when they are changed when blinded to the change.  I'm not even talking about being able to identify a specific cable you are familiar with in your own system - just that it was changed.  This has been tested over and over again with 100% negative results, even when the subjects included the cable manufacturer using his own demo system. 

OTOH, it's what makes you happy that counts. 

[DaveC113]

I never said anything about reliably hearing any differences. I think our audio recollection is short and unreliable, and the differences made by cables can be subtle to nonexistant DEPENDING ON THE GEAR. With some gear, like my Trends amp, you can hear a difference, whether or not it can be reliably identified is another question.

My poorly phrased statement was trying to make a similar point, only opposite of what modular747 is saying. People who think cables make no difference say so because they can't understand WHY cables could make a difference, but if you are educated, it's not hard to understand that changes in easily measurable electrical properties like capacitance can have a real physical effect on SOME equipment. Since this is the case (which is easily prove-able) why is it so hard to believe that this can cause a change in sound? In some amps, a high capacitance speaker cable causes instability. I bet you can hear that. 

[trebejo]

My poorly phrased statement was trying to make a similar point, only opposite of what modular747 is saying. People who think cables make no difference say so because they can't understand WHY cables could make a difference, but if you are educated, it's not hard to understand that changes in easily measurable electrical properties like capacitance can have a real physical effect on SOME equipment. Since this is the case (which is easily prove-able) why is it so hard to believe that this can cause a change in sound? In some amps, a high capacitance speaker cable causes instability. I bet you can hear that. 

Yes, of course. Those that disagree with you must be ignorant, uneducated or who-knows-what. Meanwhile, back at the magic cable ranch, no solid scientific rationale is given for why they are needed or for what they do. And of course no rationale of any kind (other than the "sucker born every minute variety") can be found for pricing cables higher than, say, an excellent amp.

I do have one question for you, do you prefer an RCL model for a cable, or do you insist on QM methodology?

Now you could always go to the nearest Phd-granting university, knock on doors in the physics or EE departments, magic cables in hand, and see what happens. At the very least, you will not be so tempted to use the word "uneducated". Be careful, though, there is not a 100% guarantee of academic integrity (e.g. Dr. Expensive-speakers-that-bounce-sound-all-over-the-room).

You could you at least consider the possibility that if a component has a significant change in performance when a cable is swapped out for some magic cable, then that means either that the previous cable was BAD (and should be replaced by an inexpensive cable that is OK) or that the component has a flawed design as far as its basic task is concerned, i.e. to go into a random human's living room and play music. The answer is probably not to get a magic cable, but to get a better component... and under no circumstance should that cable cost anywhere near as much as the components that it is plugged into.

In any case, if the magic cable AT LEAST gave some measurable paramaters in its spec sheet that one could point to and say "damn, it's practically superconductive", that would be one thing. It would still be foolish to overspend just to overkill that parameter, but at least you'd be getting something tangible for your overspending. The magic cable vendors and proponents do not even offer that.

Fabulous claims, overpriced wares, little or no reputable lab evidence backing it, and vociferous, unscientific, sometimes even ad hominem attacks from the advocates (vendors? manufacturers?) of the item in question towards those that question its validity: that is why it is rational to assume that we are witnessing a snake-oil phenomenom.

[TjMV3]

Whether or not you hear it or have the brainpower to understand it is another question.

 

Hilarious.

"Hey,  if you're not wearing PF Flyer sneakers,  you're not cool"

 

Sounds like elementry school jibber-jabber.

[TjMV3]

People who think cables make no difference say so because they can't understand WHY cables could make a difference, but if you are educated, it's not hard to understand that changes in easily measurable electrical properties like capacitance can have a real physical effect on SOME equipment. Since this is the case (which is easily prove-able) why is it so hard to believe that this can cause a change in sound? In some amps, a high capacitance speaker cable causes instability. I bet you can hear that. 

Funny thing is,   different cables,  different materials ...different "designs" will have a slightly different sound or a entirely different sound.

But different does not equal improvement.  In fact,  Different  rarely results in improvement.   Only a difference.  Warmer,  brighter.....whatever.  Choose you adjectives.

Different is one definiton.

Improvement is a seperate definition.

I have no idea how different and improvement became the same definition,  in this hobby.

Ultimately it comes down to each individual to decide and choose what they like,  for themselves;  based on their own personal preferences and tastes.  Not everyone likes the same sound.  There's no right or wrong in personal preferences and tastes.  Only what pleases the individual's ears/brain.

Even funnier,   a large majority of fancy,  smancy absurdly expensive cables......have the worst Capacitance and Resistance I have ever seen.

People who think cables make no difference say so because they can't understand WHY cables could make a difference,  but if you are educated......

Incorrect. 

People who think cables make no difference,  are people who have listened to different cables and actually hear no improvements.   

Your statement is rather self-serving,   ignorant and arrogant.  As well as elementry school juvenile.

I understand it's the only way you can justify it all to yourself and that's how you get yourself through the nights.  But please spare me your wormy,  condescending dribble.   

[avahifi]

OK, enough already!  This is supposed to be a friendly circle.

I will not tolerate insults and nasty language here.

One more and this is in the wastebin.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Wayner]

We do know that one factor that influences cable transmission is capacitance. The object is to have as low a capacitance as possible, zero being preferred, but not really possible. I have seen some cables that have a rating of 12pf per foot. That means a 1 meter cable has about 36pf and a 2 meter cable about 72pf. Those are real numbers that can be measured and at higher values, maybe heard. A good rule here is to keep cables as short as possible, use good shielded cables, but not more expensive then necessary and route interconnect cables away from things like power cords or wall-warts, things like this. I do think that chasing performance cables for myself is a waste of my own time. I'll go back to Frank's old rule. If you can't hear any difference in the first 3 notes, then it probably isn't any better (or worse) then the next cable. You get a much bigger improvement with upgrading components, like a new DAC or preamp.

Wayner 

[TjMV3]

Well it seems like every cable I have in the house,   has a capacitance of 12pf to 17pf.

Can you give me an example of a cable that is much lower?

I see much more expensive cables with much higher  capacitance than mine. 

[trebejo]

I am sorry if I have contributed to any unfriendliness here. I have been using the "count to ten" method and it helps, but I guess there are still some issues out there.

We do know that one factor that influences cable transmission is capacitance. The object is to have as low a capacitance as possible, zero being preferred, but not really possible. I have seen some cables that have a rating of 12pf per foot. That means a 1 meter cable has about 36pf and a 2 meter cable about 72pf. Those are real numbers that can be measured and at higher values, maybe heard. A good rule here is to keep cables as short as possible, use good shielded cables, but not more expensive then necessary and route interconnect cables away from things like power cords or wall-warts, things like this. I do think that chasing performance cables for myself is a waste of my own time. I'll go back to Frank's old rule. If you can't hear any difference in the first 3 notes, then it probably isn't any better (or worse) then the next cable. You get a much bigger improvement with upgrading components, like a new DAC or preamp.

Wayner 

Yep, that's exactly what I meant about taking care of lower-order sources of distortion before tackling the higher-order effects...

I remember when I was shopping for a stax headphone. There were two models that looked identical, even down to the spec sheet... except that the more expensive model quoted a drop of 10 pf in its connecting cable (120 pf vs 110 pf, TjMV3!).

I bought the more expensive model (which I heart to this day), so I guess that I paid extra for a lower-capacitance cable... and I think I would do it again!

However, if anybody asked me to recommend a pair of headphones, and I knew that they were going to think about the price tag, I would recommend the lower-priced option in a heartbeat and downplay the difference... specially because I do not expect to hear the 10 pf improvement in proper blind testing. So much for the connection between my objectivity and my actions. 

[DaveC113]

We do know that one factor that influences cable transmission is capacitance. The object is to have as low a capacitance as possible, zero being preferred, but not really possible. I have seen some cables that have a rating of 12pf per foot. That means a 1 meter cable has about 36pf and a 2 meter cable about 72pf. Those are real numbers that can be measured and at higher values, maybe heard. A good rule here is to keep cables as short as possible, use good shielded cables, but not more expensive then necessary and route interconnect cables away from things like power cords or wall-warts, things like this. I do think that chasing performance cables for myself is a waste of my own time. I'll go back to Frank's old rule. If you can't hear any difference in the first 3 notes, then it probably isn't any better (or worse) then the next cable. You get a much bigger improvement with upgrading components, like a new DAC or preamp.

Wayner 

Can you hear a difference between low and high capacitance cables? If so, is it possible to quantify this?


To the rest of you... stop being so sensitive. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.    But the fact is, I often hear people dismiss things because they don't understand them. Ignorance and inexperience lead to incorrect assumptions. Is this not true, or am I missing something? 

[TjMV3]

Oh you're missing something alright.

[DaveC113]

Oh you're missing something alright.

You have nothing to contribute, and should be banned, IMO. 

[modular747]

My poorly phrased statement was trying to make a similar point, only opposite of what modular747 is saying. People who think cables make no difference say so because they can't understand WHY cables could make a difference,

Not at all.  You completely miss the point, as well as the nature of scientific investigation, and are analyzing things backwards.  It makes no difference to me if you hear a differences or even why, only objectively proving that you actually do. 

First you have to prove that what you hear, or think you hear, relates to the cables and not something else (including your state of mind).  To do this, you have to do blinded tests where you can't be biased, in which you can statistically demonstrate that what you perceive correlates with what cable is in the system. 

If you have to know what equipment you're evaluating to hear what you "know to be true", you're only proving the bias of your perceptions.

Only AFTER you demonstrate that your perceptions independently correlate with the cable would you be begin to analyze and theorize why.  Once a theory has been made, it would then be tested for validity.

[trebejo]

You have nothing to contribute, and should be banned, IMO. 

That is really, really uncalled for. 

[DaveC113]

I'm only asking if you think that differences in cable's electrical properties, namely easily measured ones like RLC, could theoretically affect the sound of an amplifier. And if so, is it possible to define a limit where the differences are inaudible.

But it only seems to attract e-douches. I'm out.

[DaveC113]

That is really, really uncalled for. 

No it's not. IMO, he should be given at least a time out for repeatedly being a d#$%. He was warned once. That's enough. As far as I can tell, AC isn't the place to make rude comments without even attempting to say anything related to the thread.