[warnerwh]

Must admit I'm stunned. Tyson is one person who's opinion I've followed and respected.  Seems like it would be hard to put some little receiver in a nice setup as something is just not right about it not to mention it would look peculiar.   Being thick skulled my opinion was that most of the people reporting on these Panny's  were whacked out of their minds and/or didn't know what they were hearing.    Thanks for the review.

[Tyson]

warnerwh,
Believe me, you are not the only one stunned here.  I was HAPPY with the sound of my system, and selling it all and getting something new is a hassle.  If the panny sounded better and cost so much that I merely "broke even" after selling all my stuff I wouldn't do it, just to avoid the hassle.  But as it is, when I sell the DIO w/power supply, that more than pays for the stock panny.  Selling the T7 pays for the mods.  Selling the Nitro IC's and amp puts money in my pocket.  I like that

Regarding the sound, a couple of things:

1.  I've heard a very good digital amp in my system (Spectron Musician II), and while impressive in many areas, it did not equal the Panny.

2.  The Panny is the first thing I've heard that could drive the outputs to the speakers directly from a digital signal.  It sounds as good (or better) as anything I've heard in most areas, and only falling short of the best tube amps in the area of bloom/spatial/seductiveness.

Which leads me to believe that the digital amp revolution is not so much digital amps per se (and especially not digital amps that are driven by an analogue signal), but the ability to skip the D/A conversion (with analog output), preamp stage (with analog input and output), and amplifier stage (with analogue input) driving the speakers.  Directly driving the output device digitally makes for a cleaner, less smeared signal (look at all the connectors, wire, and gain stages that are now completely bypassed).  To merely stick a digital amp at the end of a traditional D/A, Preamp, Amp setup misses the point of digital technology entirely.  And the fact that the Spectron did not better my AVA 550ex is evidence for this theory.

I think the true revolution will be a 1 box player, with audiophile quality parts, seperate, overbuilt power supplies, and massive power output capabilities from a couple of output devices, with everything kept entirely in the digital domain until the speaker wire.  We are not quite there yet, and I am certain that this technology will be adopted by the Krells, Mark Levinsons, and Cary's of the world (and in a really pretty box to boot), but they haven't done it yet, and the cheap panny w/mods gets better sound than some of the best stuff I've heard, so I'm thinking - why not get all the $$ out of the expensive seperates and enjoy better sound now?

Well, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it  

[Rob Babcock]

Not everyone has the guts to trust their ears and go with a unit that the Audiophool Cognicenti will undoubtedly look down on.  You'll take a hit in the 'prestige' dept, but gain ground in sound quality.  At the end of the day, isn't that what we're all looking for?  Getting closer to the music it why we do this.

Glad to see it worked out for you.  I think you just gave me the nudge it took to get me off the fence.

[ez-v]

I'm really intrigued by all the hype that the Panasonic SA-XR45 is getting. I think a majority of the people on this forum -- which tend to favor more esoteric gear -- haven't heard most of the mass-market digital receivers, thus making the Panny's performace seem like a revelation.  

What I'd be interested to know is how the XR45 (stock or modified) sounds versus the other digital receivers out their such as the Harmon/Kardon DPR 1001 (soon to be replaced by the DPR 1005 and 2005), Sony's S-Master receivers, and Rotel's new RSDX-02 combo DVD/receiver.

Not to be skeptical, but it seems like many are jumping on the Panny bandwagon without actually having heard similar but competing technologies and so dismissing a potentially better solution.  Admittedly the H/K, Sony, and Rotel receivers all outprice the Panny by 60%, but at least from what I've read, many have said that the Sony S-Master technology sounds even better than the Panasonic in stock form.

Moreover, if as Tyson stated, the true benefits to be reaped from this digital technology is in the lack of unnecessary multiple A/D to D/A conversions and gain stages, one would think the Sony AVD-S500ES, Sony AVD-C700ES, and Rotel RSDX-02 could potentially -- I haven't seen the schematics of signal propogation through the various stages of these machines -- be the first to really take advantage of a full digital signal path since they have DVD/SACD/CD players built into the same box as the amp section.  

As I understand it, the last generation of Sony all-in-ones failed to take advantage of this possiblity in their design because the digital signal from the transport does go through an D/A and A/D conversion prior to reaching the amp section and so not providing a true all-digital signal path from transport to amp; this resulted in what was reported as mediocre SACD and redbook CD performance.

So basically, the question that I pose at the end of this rant is: Have any of you who are touting the Panasonic so highly heard the competing technologies, most notably the Sony S-Master digital amp receivers, to see if the Panny is the best of these mass-market digital amp solutions?

[Rob Babcock]

Do a search of this forum, ez-v.  The Sony has been discussed at great length here, as have several other digital solutions, including the Carver Pro, Flying Mole, Embla, Pioneer, Blaupunkt and a couple ICEPower amps.  Most guys have found the Sony to be good for the $ but don't consider it the be-all,-end-all.

Welcome to AC, ez-v.  Hope you enjoy the site.

[ez-v]

Thanks for the welcome Rob!

The thing is I DID read through a majority of the threads associated with digital amp receivers as well as standalone digital power amps like the Carver Pro, etc.  I won't get into the power amp technologies such as those put forth by ICEPower, Tripath, etc. because my main interest is in digital amp receivers.

I was just interested to know if anyone who has demo'd a stock or modified XR45 in a disproportionately high-end system -- one that would undoubtedly reveal differences between different amps and processors -- also A/B'd or at least heard in the same system one of the Sony or H/K counterparts.

It is true that, as I mentioned, CD and SACD playback through Sony's last generations ES combo units were mediocre at best.  I haven't found any reviews on the most recent iterations.  While still not the "be-all, end-all," the Sony S-Master digital receivers seemed to be superior in the opinions of the few reports that I have read comparing the Sony to the Panny head to head.  The report that comes to mind immediately is Kendrid's report that he much preferred the sound of the Sony 2000 and 3000ES over that of the Panny in his system.

So that leads me to question why so much praise seems to be placed on the Panasonic such that one would even be willing to spend an additional 200% the street price to mod a unit that isn't even necessarily a best of breed stock unit.

I would guinea pig the and A/B the Sony and Panny untis for myself were it not for the fact that many reports have stated that the true capabilities of the Panny digitals don't manifest until after weeks of burn in which negates any possibility of comparing two units and then returning one if not both units were I less than enchanted with the sound.

[Rob Babcock]

Okay, I see where you're coming from.  But I should point out that from an S/Q standpoint, the pre-mod "baseline" model doesn't necessarily equate to how the modded unit will sound.  IE. some are easier-to or more-sucessful to mod.  I'm not an EE or even an accomplished modder, so I can't say what all the mods entail, but it does seem that one consistant knock on the S-Master Sony's is noise; that crops up in many reviews.  Maybe the build quality just isn't as good.

What excites me is that the Sony's and Panny's are just the tip of the iceberg.  Once the 'better' mfg'rs get into the act we'll see more advanced units with more capabilities (eg better bass manaegment, more inputs, digital room correction, etc) combined with a straight all digital signal path.

There's no talk here of some of the very new ones, like the HK, simply because they're not readily available yet (I haven't seen the HK for sale anywhere online- if you have a link I'd love it, though! ) and I don't think the newest line of Sony's or Panny's is in the store yet.

I agree with you in principle, though, that there's a lot of technology that pure snobbery and Flat Earth Thinking has completely overlooked.  Maybe if the Panny helps erase that bias then it's served a useful purpose.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, the Panny is recommended on the website of a very well known and highly regarded speaker mfg'r as a perfect match for his reference speaker.  That gives the Panny some "street cred" and may be responsible for the current buzz.

[Ears]

I dont suppose that any hi rez through the 45 was used for comparison as this is where the stock unit is a let down IMO.

My stock 45 whith self made bybeed pc, power conditioning and upgraded main binding posts whith 5-6 weeks of 24/7 run in was good enough in most areas to sell my 8k worth of pre/pro amp combo and use for ht sonics.

I also thought the stock digital input far exceeded the price of admission but have been disapointed whith the stock unit for hi rez.

Only the very best[very few] recordings let you hear the difference between hi rez and redbook whith the stock unit so it would be nice to hear how the mods effect that area of the 45 as compared to stock.

There was never any doubt for me as to what the mods could/would do for direct digital and HT sonics but what about hi rez?

[nature boy]

Looks like Wayne has another winner here!  Tyson and others thanks for the posts and observations.  I'll have to think about an upgrade for my trusty old Yamaha receiver in my HT set up in a little bit.

NB

[duff138]

does the panny have a headphone jack?   with a new baby in the house i'm considering getting a headphone amp.  if it has one, maybe i'll just get the panny.  how does it sound?  it does not have to be great.  i just need something for late night listening.

[Wayne1]

Thanks for ALL the comments.

The modded Panny does NOT sound as good as the direct digital signal on the analog inputs. I would NOT use the modded Panny in a system that uses SACD, DVD-A or vinyl as a main source. The major benefit to the design of the Panny is to keep everything digital from start to finish.

The analog to digital section of the Panny is just not up to the straight digital.

The modded SA-XR45 makes a wonderful receiver for a DVD based HT. It is really fantastic as a DVD or CD based 2-channel system using either 2 or 4 channel of amplification. If multichannel SACD or DVD-A is your main source or interest, don't use the Panny. If two channel SACD is you main interest, don't use the Panny. I vunyl is your main source, don't use the Panny.

Untill the folks who own the rights to SACD and DVD-A allow a pure digital transfer of signals without having to use some obscure transfer protocol and proprietary players and connectors, I do not believe we can get the full benefit of these hi-rez formats.

We did use the Panny with a 24/96 DAD disc and it was better than any SACD I have heard. Unfortunately you can't use Party mode and bi-amp with the higher bit rate processing.

I chose to develop the mods for the Panny instead of the Sony or any of the other brands, because of all the buzz, the low cost of entry, and the ready availability of a service manual. It may be that some of the other brands may be "better" in some way or another. What I can say about the Panny is it caused someone, whose ears I respect very much, to want to sell off over $5,000.00 worth of electronics and cables, that up to this time had sounded better in his system than all comers, to replace it with a $1,000.00 modded, one box solution.

In time, there may be someting better out there. There always is a faster gun. Right now, in the three systems we have heard the modded Panny in, it is the fastest gun.

[Ears]

Wayne, does the 5.1 input improve whith the signal cap upgrades....regardless of it not being the equal of direct digital?

How does the modded 5.1 inputs stack up to the stock digital direct inputs?

I highly doubt anyone is using hi rez as there main source as there are not enough titles for most of us.

You do upgrade the 5.1 signal path whith BG's correct?
I am interested in how this compares to stock as opposed to how it compares whith the digital direct.

If it is not worth doing the 5.1 input mods, is there going to be a modded version that is just for the digital direct inputs and ps only?

[Wayne1]

Ears,

Yes, the analog inputs do improve with modification, but they are not even close to the direct digital input.

There is now A LOT of interest in demoing this unit. Both Tyson and Sean have ordered stock units to arrive this week. I have received quite a few phone calls and emails want to demo the modded unit. I have a few more tweaks to do to the unit I have before I send it out.

I will be working on a special "Tyson" edition, two channel only mod. It will use eight high quality binding post and different signal path routing for the output stages. The digital input stage will be tweaked a bit more and the output circuit will be worked on. Bybees can be installed inside the Panny for the speaker outputs and in the digital input. This will be a more expensive version of the HT mod I have currently done.

[Tyson]

I have absolutely no doubt that at some point in the future there will be a single box player from someone like Classe or Krell or Levinson, that is a universal transport simply driving these "powerdac" output chips like the Panny has.  I'm sure it will have a killer, audiophile power supply, and at least 200 wpc for 6 or more channels, handle dvd-a and sacd in the digital domain (since the transport is built in, no need for analog outputs or inputs for SACD/DVD-A), and have a couple of very high quality inputs for analog sources like Vinyl.  The power supply will probably be in a seperate chassis, and probably will not be a switching power supply.  I am also certain it will sound awesome and probably better than the modded Panny I'll be getting.  The thing is, it will cost a LOT of money, and it also does not exist yet.  When something like this exists I will probably look in to buying one, but for right now, I'm getting the modded Panny and enjoying much better redbook CD sound than what I am getting now.  And since I've got close to 3000 CD's now, I've a strong interest in getting the best sound possible from them.

People scoff at the $1k price for a modded unit, and ask how it compares to used amps you can get at this price range (and you can get some nice $1k used amps, for sure), but that is not really an accurate comparison.  The real comparison, what can you get for $1k (used or new), that does D/A conversion, preamp, AND amp functions at this level of quality?  If you break it down to a per component basis, the question is, what preamp for $333, D/A converter for $333, and amp for $333 can equal the modded panny?  Since the $5k I have in my gear is all in stuff I consider "high value, performs above it's price" type of gear, I'd hazzard a guess to say "nothing" will match the modded panny for digital playback.

As for the unmodded vs. the modded panny, I'll have a stock unit coming in the next couple of days, I can run it in a bit and do a comparison w/the modded unit if anyone is interested in that (there seems to be interest).

[PeteG]

Wayne & Tyson are dead on with using the direct digital input on the panny, I found using a transport that passed a 24/96 bitstream worked best, some CDP don't.

I have 10 or so DAD disc from a few years ago when using a Bel Canto dac/mod trainsport,
and panny by far sounds better to me with DADs & CDs (this was in a different system though), but like Tyson said probably do to one box set up.

There's no dout this is the future of audio, a one box amp that takes a CD/SACD/DVD-A
bitstream. I'm using a non-mod SA-XR25/RP82 w/17"LCD. The panny wouldn't work in my
 2ch system do to that I listen to alot of SACD/vinyl, but I'm sure that will change in a few years.

[nature boy]

Wayne,

Thanks for the additional caveats and information about application strenths/weaknesses of the modified Panny.  This makes a lot of sense.

I think it is very cool that a low cost off the shelf unit can be modified to provide a kick-ass HT set up and/or great dedicated 2 channel CD listening experience.  I hope to have an opportunity for a listen to one of you modified Panny's at some point in the future.

Some have scoffed at the idea of buying a relatively low priced amp or receiver then putting twice or three times as much into modifications.  While it doesn't necessarily sound logical, the proof is in the sound.  

I have been thoroughly impressed with Don Nance's upgraded ART SLA-1 amplifier ($239 for amplifier and now $1000 for upgrade) as it has found a home in my 2 channel system.  Since I listen to vinyl and CD's, looks like I'll be sticking with an analog amplifier, at least in my 2 channel system.  I just had Don add Shallco resistors to the unit for the reference upgrade and will be reporting in the critics circle in a couple of weeks.

Keep those great products coming.

NB

[J North]

Congrats to Wayne for pushing the XR45 to its limits and providing incredible audio value. The thought of a one or two box solution is certainly intriguing. Finding the "right" interconnect to sysnergize with the rest of your system can certainly be a PITA.

I think Panasonic/TI/TACT are way ahead of the others (Tripath, LCAudio, B&O, PSAudio, Sprectron) in the PCM direct to PWM conversion process.
HK uses Apogee chips which we have not heard too much about lately.

I don't see Krell or Classe coming up with their own "digital only" technology. They would probably have to license it from TI.

I have to wonder where TI's direction is with regards to DSD to PWM conversion for SACD. There may be quite a wait for TI to provide a "dual purpose" chipset if they are stuck with licensing isses for SACD with Sony/Philips. I also read somewhere that Panasonic has no intention of supporting SACD so that is another sticking point for the Panasonic implementation going forward in respect to SACD. Does anyone know where the volume control is in the Panny? Is it in the PCM, PWM or "somewhere in the middle" stage?

But I mean really, if people are enjoying their systems with modded Panny's & redbook like they never have enjoyed their systems before, why worry about SACD and its relatively limited software selection?

[Rob Babcock]

I'm a little bummed about the purported low-end analog sound; while I only have 50 or so SACD & DVD-A discs I enjoy them a lot.  With something interesting coming out on hi rez every week, I was hoping to be able to get something cheap with high end aspirations that could wring everything out of MC.  Too bad.

Still, most of my listening is CD, so I'll probably try the Panny unmodded for awhile (as soon as I can find one) and maybe step up to the "Full Monty" as soon as Wayne has all the tweaks in place.

[BrunoB]

I'm a little bummed about the purported low-end analog sound; while I only have 50 or so SACD & DVD-A discs I enjoy them a lot.  With something interesting coming out on hi rez every week, I was hoping to be able to get something cheap with high end aspirations that could wring everything out of MC.  Too bad.

That's why I keep an eye on the upcoming Sharp all in one unit. It will support both SACD and DVD-A. Sharp uses a 5.6 MHz switching amp. I have the previous model (Sharp SD-SH111) and I am quite impressed by the sound.

The new Sharp thread is here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=5655&highlight=SACD