240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus

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bmckenney

240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« on: 2 Dec 2009, 05:07 am »
Just curious how much different the balanced version of a Torus is compared to the non balanced version.  Maybe not that the Torus equipment is different, but the implementation of balanced versus unbalanced. 

I can't imagine anyone has actually done a side by side comparison of the RM BAL models to the RM models on the two different circuits required for such a comparison, with the same system/room, but wanted to ask anyway.  If the difference is dramatic, I would consider having a balanced circuit installed since I'm considering dedicated lines anyway.

Bryan

werd

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #1 on: 2 Dec 2009, 05:12 am »
never compared but  the 240v gives u a balanced power cord which is probably better than most 120v after market cords for noise rejection.

bmckenney

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #2 on: 4 Dec 2009, 03:27 am »
I got some feedback on this from one of the technical guys at Torus/Plitron.  Might as well post it in case someone finds the info useful.  I was told that running a balanced version gives about 3-5% improvement in sound over a non balanced version.  Doesn't really seem worth it to me if that's it.  I'm a little disappointed considering all I've read about balanced power noise reduction.

Bryan

1oldguy

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #3 on: 4 Dec 2009, 12:51 pm »
3 to 5% Hey....Well there are two ways to look at that.A little or a lot depending on your POV.Will it be earth shattering results,most likely not,but it could make all the difference in the world.

srb

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #4 on: 4 Dec 2009, 03:59 pm »
I got some feedback on this from one of the technical guys at Torus/Plitron.  Might as well post it in case someone finds the info useful.  I was told that running a balanced version gives about 3-5% improvement in sound over a non balanced version.

When comparing an entirely subjective improvement in sound, how the heck does someone arrive at a finite number like 3-5%?  The Torus had caught my interest; now I don't know.  I would expect to hear that kind of silly statement from a user but not from a manufacturer.
 
Steve

James Tanner

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Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #5 on: 4 Dec 2009, 04:21 pm »
I got some feedback on this from one of the technical guys at Torus/Plitron.  Might as well post it in case someone finds the info useful.  I was told that running a balanced version gives about 3-5% improvement in sound over a non balanced version.

When comparing an entirely subjective improvement in sound, how the heck does someone arrive at a finite number like 3-5%?  The Torus had caught my interest; now I don't know.  I would expect to hear that kind of silly statement from a user but not from a manufacturer.
 
Steve

Steve - recognize that the Torus guys build transformers - they are not audiophiles and have no understanding of the the subtlies us audio types care about.

james

srb

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #6 on: 4 Dec 2009, 04:54 pm »
Steve - recognize that the Torus guys build transformers - they are not audiophiles and have no understanding of the the subtlies us audio types care about.

Okay James.  Are there any measurable specifications that could be made for a device like this? 
 
Although some users seem to think that a device like this will increase dynamics over an amplifier plugged straight into the wall, I'm not sure I believe that.  That it would give increased dynamics over an amplifier plugged into a different power conditioner that was limiting current, I can believe that.
 
Can a S/N ratio be measured somewhere in the audio chain with and without the conditioner?  I'm just trying to understand if there are explainable gains that might be realized with this device.
 
I currently use a much less expensive conditioner in my system mostly for the reasons of voltage regulation, surge protection and hopefully removing some noise and perhaps any existing DC component on the line, but my power amplifier is plugged straight into the wall.
 
Steve

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Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #7 on: 4 Dec 2009, 05:09 pm »
Hi Steve,

The only advantage a Balanced version of the Torus has is that the cables in the wall leading to the Torus from the hydro panel are Balanced 120/120 so 240 at the input.  A balanced power line acts exactly like a balance line in audio amplifiers in that there is a cancellation of noise pickup on the line through what is called common mode noise reduction.

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.
 
 A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.
 
Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house.  The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.
 
A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).

james

srb

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #8 on: 4 Dec 2009, 05:18 pm »
James,
 
I knew capacitors stored energy, but I was unaware that there was a particular type of transformer actually designed for energy storage.  I will try to read some more information on this.  Thanks.
 
Steve

bmckenney

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #9 on: 4 Dec 2009, 05:54 pm »
James,
 
I knew capacitors stored energy, but I was unaware that there was a particular type of transformer actually designed for energy storage.  I will try to read some more information on this.  Thanks.
 
Steve

Understanding theory is good.  Or having a theory and being able to implement it is good, which Torus did.  And then there is the practical part, which to me is, does it work?  I have to say that the energy storage part of these things does work just based on what I'm hearing.  And I do believe that what I'm hearing must translate to something that can be measured too that shows something about energy.

You might want to read up on these types of transformer (PIUs) on the equi=tech website too.  Lot's of documenation there.

b5pt9

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #10 on: 4 Dec 2009, 06:23 pm »
They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house.

I know above is true because before I installed the Powervar my house lighting would dim in conjunction with kick drum beats at high volumes.  This had to be caused by volt drop upstream of my house panel because the lighting was on different circuits than the stereo.

werd

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #11 on: 4 Dec 2009, 06:50 pm »
Hi Steve,

"The only advantage a Balanced version of the Torus has is that the cables in the wall leading to the Torus from the hydro panel are Balanced 120/120 so 240 at the input.  A balanced power line acts exactly like a balance line in audio amplifiers in that there is a cancellation of noise pickup on the line through what is called common mode noise reduction."


I would also say that the 240 volt is also a forced dedicated line where one would run 10gauge from the fuse box. I would estimate that the 240 has better ac supply to  the unit than a 120. We are talking current recovery along with noise rejection. If the  tech said  3 to 5 % that could be accurate.

srb

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #12 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:09 pm »
If the  tech said  3 to 5 % that could be accurate.

3 - 5% of what?  It was reported that the tech said 3 - 5% "better sound quality".

Werd, your post would read better if you put your comment outside of James' quote.
 
Steve

werd

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #13 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:14 pm »
If the  tech said  3 to 5 % that could be accurate.

3 - 5% of what?  It was reported that the tech said 3 - 5% "better sound quality".

Werd, your post would read better if you put your comment outside of James' quote.
 
Steve

Yes in the end it equates to better sound quality with less noise and better current source. He may have also meant 3 to 5 % better work efficiency which means better sound quality. I don't know what he said exactly but it makes sense as the 240 has some clear advantages over the 120 as stated above. Its going end up being better power source for you gear.

Sasha

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Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #14 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:19 pm »
I do not have Torus but another transformer based AC power conditioner (equi=tech) that is balanced on the output as opposed on the input.
This is the only piece of equipment that I have never considered selling, it will remain in my system forever.
I do not see how I can express improvement in percentages; all I can say is that improvement is significant and easily audible.
You have to make sure that you get model of sufficient capacity.

srb

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #15 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:30 pm »
Question on the Torus Balanced models:  I know the AC wall outlet will be a special 240V receptacle and that the supplied power cord will have the special 240V plug.
 
I can't be sure from the Torus' website Rear Panel View small photo, but it looks like a standard IEC socket.  If so, what would happen if a standard 120V power cord were plugged into the IEC socket and plugged into a 120V AC outlet (without the unit being reconfigured internally)?
 
If it is a special IEC socket also, well then never mind!
 
Steve

James Tanner

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Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #16 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:38 pm »
Question on the Torus Balanced models:  I know the AC wall outlet will be a special 240V receptacle and that the supplied power cord will have the special 240V plug.
 
I can't be sure from the Torus' website Rear Panel View small photo, but it looks like a standard IEC socket.  If so, what would happen if a standard 120V power cord were plugged into the IEC socket and plugged into a 120V AC outlet (without the unit being reconfigured internally)?
 
If it is a special IEC socket also, well then never mind!
 
Steve

Hi Steve

On the 20 amp units the IEC type inlet plug would be the same for either a 120V or a 240V unit.  The worst that could happen is you use a 120 volt cord on a 240 volt 20 amp unit and it would not turn on.

james

bmckenney

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #17 on: 4 Dec 2009, 09:32 pm »
I do not have Torus but another transformer based AC power conditioner (equi=tech) that is balanced on the output as opposed on the input.
This is the only piece of equipment that I have never considered selling, it will remain in my system forever.
I do not see how I can express improvement in percentages; all I can say is that improvement is significant and easily audible.
You have to make sure that you get model of sufficient capacity.

Sasha,  Is that a Q or Son of Q model?

I was wondering about the equi=tech units and whether they required a balanced 240V AC line input.  I never could find anything on the site that said that balanced mains AC had to be balanced and could not find anything.  But they are balanced units.  They talk about balanced power extensively and their products are, but don't require balanced mains.  Pretty weird sounding to me. 

I wish the Torus products were like that.  I've been looking at the equi=tech because of this feature.  But price wise the lesser Son of Q is more in my league, but I do wonder about the lesser quality transformers.

If I could get the right model from a current capacity point of view, for the right price, that gives me the benefit of balanced power for my integrated amp, without installing the 240v lines, that would be nice.

Bryan

werd

Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #18 on: 4 Dec 2009, 09:51 pm »
I do not have Torus but another transformer based AC power conditioner (equi=tech) that is balanced on the output as opposed on the input.
This is the only piece of equipment that I have never considered selling, it will remain in my system forever.
I do not see how I can express improvement in percentages; all I can say is that improvement is significant and easily audible.
You have to make sure that you get model of sufficient capacity.

My sentiments exactly. Out of all the awards Bryston has amassed with the gear i own, if i could only keep one piece of gear it would be my Torus. This is over everything else. AC delivery to gear is where it all starts. I used to own a balanced Blue circle mr1200 that i thought was the way to go with it's balanced output, but it didn't drive my system like hi-fi should sound imo. You find a good ac supply and its makes everything that much easier to match up.

James Tanner

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Re: 240V Balanced vrs 120V Torus
« Reply #19 on: 4 Dec 2009, 09:55 pm »
MEMO: All USA and Canadian Torus Representatives
SUBJECT: Balanced Power



Based on a recent Internet posting that came to our attention at Torus there appears to be some misunderstanding regarding Balanced Powerline Conditioners.

 
Torus Power line conditions can operate on a power line input feed of 120 Volt (single phase) or 240 Volt (dual phase). If the 240 Volt version is used then the Torus Powerline Conditioner is BALANCED at the INPUT. The OUTPUT is not balanced and runs Single Phase 120 Volts.

The advantage of operating a Balanced Input or a Balanced Output is noise reduction as a result of the balanced line common mode noise rejection. Given Plitron's proprietary technologies --- "NBT", "Low-Noise" and "Low Imin" --- Torus Power units have the capability to reduce noise effectively on the output without the need to use Balanced 60V-60V output terminals.

The problem with using Balanced 60/120V. 1-phase AC output on a Consumer Powerline Conditioner are the mandatory requirements demanded by the 2005 USA National Electrical Code - Article 647.

The Balanced 60/120 Volt 1-phase AC mandatory installation requirements are:


1. The system is installed only in commercial or industrial occupancies.

2. All junction box covers shall be clearly marked to indicate the distribution panel and the system voltage.

3. Restricted to areas under close qualified supervision.

Where receptacles are used as a means of connecting equipment, the following conditions shall be met:

1. All 15 ampere and 20 ampere receptacles shall be GFCI protected.

2. All outlet strips, adapters, receptacle covers and faceplates shall be marked with the following words or equivalent:

WARNING - TECHNICAL POWER
Do not connect to lighting equipment.
For electronic equipment use only.
60/120 V. 1-phase AC
GFCI protected.

 
In conclusion if a Torus Powerline Conditioner is used (either 120V Single Phase or 240V Balanced) in a Consumer installation the advantages are:

 1. There is no need for use of GFCI protected receptacles.

2. Can be installed in residential as well as commercial and industrial
   occupancies.

3. Operation of the unit does not require close supervision by qualified
    personnel.

4. No warning labels required


Regards,
James Tanner
V/P Bryston