[werd]

Hi Steve,

The only advantage a Balanced version of the Torus has is that the cables in the wall leading to the Torus from the hydro panel are Balanced 120/120 so 240 at the input.  A balanced power line acts exactly like a balance line in audio amplifiers in that there is a cancellation of noise pickup on the line through what is called common mode noise reduction.

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.
 
 A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.
 
Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house.  The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.
 
A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).

james

Hi James

O i get it now. so the peak current demands might occur between the time the caps would normally regenerate. But the Torus addresses that and regenerates the caps through the entire wave. Thus  a cap that may normally be starved of current is provided a constant supply top-off. Is this correct?

[Sasha]

I do not have Torus but another transformer based AC power conditioner (equi=tech) that is balanced on the output as opposed on the input.
This is the only piece of equipment that I have never considered selling, it will remain in my system forever.
I do not see how I can express improvement in percentages; all I can say is that improvement is significant and easily audible.
You have to make sure that you get model of sufficient capacity.

Sasha,  Is that a Q or Son of Q model?

I was wondering about the equi=tech units and whether they required a balanced 240V AC line input.  I never could find anything on the site that said that balanced mains AC had to be balanced and could not find anything.  But they are balanced units.  They talk about balanced power extensively and their products are, but don't require balanced mains.  Pretty weird sounding to me. 

I wish the Torus products were like that.  I've been looking at the equi=tech because of this feature.  But price wise the lesser Son of Q is more in my league, but I do wonder about the lesser quality transformers.

If I could get the right model from a current capacity point of view, for the right price, that gives me the benefit of balanced power for my integrated amp, without installing the 240v lines, that would be nice.

Bryan

I have Q model, the largest 2KV one that does not require 240V input.
Equi=tech has balanced output, +/-60V as opposed to balanced input, basically achieves the same DC component / noise rejection as Torus with its balanced input.
I bought mine long time ago before Torus became available.
I had the same requirement, I wanted the benefit of balanced power without installing the 240V lines and 2KV Q model fits the bill.
I do not believe Son of Q is of a lesser quality, but it may not be big enough, depending on what you intend to feed from it.

[bmckenney]

Sasha, according to equitech, the son of q windings are different than the q version.  It came out after as a lower price market product.  And you can get various models of the son of q for different requirements.

Does you model take a normal 120 V plug on the output for components even though it's 60/60V out?  I'm assuming it must, otherwise you couldn't plug in a normal cords.

[Sasha]

Sasha, according to equitech, the son of q windings are different than the q version.  It came out after as a lower price market product.  And you can get various models of the son of q for different requirements.

Does you model take a normal 120 V plug on the output for components even though it's 60/60V out?  I'm assuming it must, otherwise you couldn't plug in a normal cords.

Yes, the uotput is normal 120 V plug. You just get +/-60V as oposesed to 120/0V

[bmckenney]

Hi Steve,

The only advantage a Balanced version of the Torus has is that the cables in the wall leading to the Torus from the hydro panel are Balanced 120/120 so 240 at the input.  A balanced power line acts exactly like a balance line in audio amplifiers in that there is a cancellation of noise pickup on the line through what is called common mode noise reduction.

The Torus transformer is designed specifically to have very high energy storage. It is a considerably more expensive way to design a transformer, and thus is almost never done, but it has clear advantages.
 
 A 'normal' linear amplifier power-supply is made up of a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a set of filter capacitors. The filter capacitors smooth the DC in the rectified waveform, and also store energy to supply large transient current demands from the speakers. The filter capacitors in turn are recharged by the transformer on each half-cycle. However, that recharging takes place on the very peaks of the 60Hz waveform, over only a few degrees of conduction. Thus, although the average current from the power cord is only a few Amperes, it is actually a series of very narrow, very high peaks of current, as much as 50 or more Amperes per half-cycle.
 
Those high, narrow peaks of current have a consequence. They equate to drops in Voltage from the power cord, from the wall socket, from the wiring leading to the house.  The audible consequence in turn impacts on focus, dynamics, depth of image, 'holography, etc.
 
A transformer designed for energy storage first and foremost, solves those issues. It recharges the filter capacitors directly from its own energy storage capacity, and then takes up the energy from the wall socket over the entire 60Hz waveform. Gone are the narrow peaks of 50+Amp current, gone are the Voltage drops, gone are the negative consequences for ultimate focus, dynamics, depth of image, etc. (Please understand these are subtle audible effects, though a trained listener can hear them, particularly in comparison listening).

james

James,

So is there really any advantage to using balanced mains and the balanced version of the Torus?  One thing that strikes me is a non balanced line won't have the benefit of CMN reduction so it should have more noise on the line.  But wouldn't that noise be cleaned up once it passes thru a Torus anyway?

Edit Note:  Nevermind.  I think the memo you poster earlier in the thread answered my question, shed light on why balanced mains in doesn't really buy you anything because it's been cleaned up anyway by the other noise reduction technology.

Bryan

[James Tanner]

Bryan,

I still think having a balanced input helps but it is not as critical as one would assume given the other technologies employed by the Torus design.

james

[bmckenney]

Bryan,

I still think having a balanced input helps but it is not as critical as one would assume given the other technologies employed by the Torus design.

james

I know maybe you can't speak for another manufacturers design, but I'm really perplexed with the equi=tech isolation transformer products.  They take unbalanced 120V and output balanced 240V.  Or maybe that's balanced 120V out.  I guess it would have to be.  But it is balanced out.  That just strikes me as odd.  Maybe they do that because of the common mode noise reduction benefit of balanced power.  But it is different than the Torus products.  And I was wondering if this approach was considered by the Plitron and rejected.  Any thoughts on that?

Bryan

[James Tanner]

Bryan,

I still think having a balanced input helps but it is not as critical as one would assume given the other technologies employed by the Torus design.

james

I know maybe you can't speak for another manufacturers design, but I'm really perplexed with the equi=tech isolation transformer products.  They take unbalanced 120V and output balanced 240V.  Or maybe that's balanced 120V out.  I guess it would have to be.  But it is balanced out.  That just strikes me as odd.  Maybe they do that because of the common mode noise reduction benefit of balanced power.  But it is different than the Torus products.  And I was wondering if this approach was considered by the Plitron and rejected.  Any thoughts on that?

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

The balanced out is fine for what it is (common mode noise reduction)  - it is just that given the restrictions of using it in a domestic environment (Electrical Code - Article 647) and the fact that the Torus can just as effectively reject noise using other technologies is the better approach in Torus's opinion.

I should add that noise reduction is only a small part of what a Torus does. TOTAL ISOLATION from the outside power grid and HIGH INSTANTANIOUS CURRENT DRAW and SURGE PROTECTION (not using MOV's) are the main advantages of the Torus design.

james