[jhm731]

Did some more speaker positioning testing.

My room is 210" L x  138" W x 96".  Speakers are on the short wall. Listening postion is 70" off the back wall.

Speakers are Budge Khorus (circa 1995, picture in gallery), which are a floor standing 2-way with a rear port. The base is 13.5" x 13.5."

I positioned the speakers against the back wall (center of the woofers were 36" from the side walls) and put a copy of "Duets" my into my PWT and started listening and moving in a range up to 36" off the back wall.  In this range, my favorite position was with the base of the speakers 6" off the back.

I ran some measurements using a LinearX M31 calibrated mic and my Aberdeen
TacT 2.2XP. The 6" position produced the best looking measurement in the 0-36" range.

Next, I compared this measurement to the modified Cardas position ( I have the speakers closer to the side walls) I was using.

From 100 hz up the measurements look very similar, so I focused on the range from 30 hz to 100 hz.

In the graph below, the blue curve is the 6" position, red curve is my Cardas position. The peaks in the blue curve are at 48 hz and 68 hz.



If you're looking for a low bass boost, I would definitely try a near wall speaker placement.


Happy holidays.

[vinyl_guy]

I was in Colorado over the Christmas holidays and stopped in to see Rod Tomson, owner of Soundings Hi Fi in Denver. I would call Rod a Master Set expert. I spent a few hours visiting with Rod about Master Set, the theory, etc, and then listened to some music from a set of Vienna Acoustic speakers that had been "Master Set." The sound was wonderful and as Steve has posted, I could move around the room and the sound stayed focused with a very wide sweet spot and excellent imaging, detail, bass extension, focused midrange and smooth highs. A very non-fatiguing sound.

After I returned home, I have experimented with my speaker location using some of the ideas/suggestions from my discussions with Rod. I moved my speakers a little farther apart and closer to the front wall behind the speakers. They are about 44.5" from the side walls to center of the woofer (Cardas was 56.25); the left speaker is 57.5" and the right speaker is 59.5" from the front of the woofers to the wall behind the speakers; the speakers are 116.5" apart (center of woofer to center of woofer); and I sit about 144" from the speakers. I picked up some bass slam and extension that I had lost by having the speakers farther out into the room. The current location is throwing a nice wide soundstage with focused imaging that stays centered no matter where I sit on my couch. It is very easy to close my eyes and get lost in the music. I like this speaker location better than when I used the Cardas calculator, but I am interested finding out what a Master Set will produce. Since Rod is willing to travel, I am going to use some airline miles and fly him to Spokane to do a Master Set later this winter.

Laura

[stvnharr]

I was in Colorado over the Christmas holidays and stopped in to see Rod Thomson, owner of Soundings Hi Fi in Denver. I would call Rod a Master Set expert. I spent a few hours visiting with Rod about Master Set, the theory, etc, and then listened to some music from a set of Vienna Acoustic speakers that had been "Master Set." The sound was wonderful and as Steve has posted, I could move around the room and the sound stayed focused with a very wide sweet spot and excellent imaging, detail, bass extension, focused midrange and smooth highs. A very non-fatiguing sound.

After I returned home, I have experimented with my speaker location using some of the ideas/suggestions from my discussions with Rod. I moved my speakers a little farther apart and closer to the front wall behind the speakers. They are about 44.5" from the side walls to center of the woofer (Cardas was 56.25); the left speaker is 57.5" and the right speaker is 59.5" from the front of the woofers to the wall behind the speakers; the speakers are 116.5" apart (center of woofer to center of woofer); and I sit about 144" from the speakers. I picked up some bass slam and extension that I had lost by having the speakers farther out into the room. The current location is throwing a nice wide soundstage with focused imaging that stays centered no matter where I sit on my couch. It is very easy to close my eyes and get lost in the music. I like this speaker location better than when I used the Cardas calculator, but I am interested finding out what a Master Set will produce. Since Rod is willing to travel, I am going to use some airline miles and fly him to Spokane to do a Master Set later this winter.

Laura

Laura,
Thanks for the post. Rod will have your room singing like you've never heard it sing.

Steve

[jimdgoulding]

Laura-  Your measurements sound nearer to Cardas than Master Set from what I've been reading.  Funny, my speakers are 44" from each side wall and 56" from the wall behind (center of woofer) tho my triangle is smaller than yours but so, too, is my room and each is precisely the SAME distance from the wall behind.  As said previously, I can and do adjust to a particular recording sometimes by moving my chair to or fro and/or changing toe-in.  It makes sense to me that information/waveforms from our speakers arrive at the SAME time and that omnidirectional info courtesy of the room should be integrated as best we can to arrive at a sympathetic time to round out the sensation of live instruments (and a venue when one is in a recording).  I think speaker placement and room tuning is all about achieving that to include faithful tone (i.e. an even in room frequency response).  That is, if getting the best illusion and sensation of real is a goal.  There is the issue of timing using multi driver speakers for that which I believe is of equal importance but that is another conversation. 

Misaligning or not integrating our speakers properly will give a listener a more uneven frequency balance, for starters, and while that may be attractive to some part of the experience, I believe there is a price to be extracted over time. 

Laura, I'm quite certain you are going to experience more of something when MS visits you just as I am that you will experience less of something.  Hope you'll take comparative notes for reference.  I think you have great speakers, BTW.  Do you have an occasional chair you could put in front of your sofa for serious listening?  Think that would give you a better triangle for what I've attempted to describe tho it may require you to move your speaks somewhat closer to one another as may be appropriate.  All the best.

PS-  Recommend some well recorded classical and small band vocal music with some dimensionality for demo-ing, of course.

[TooManyToys]

I was in Colorado over the Christmas holidays and stopped in to see Rod Tomson.......

After I returned home, I have experimented with my speaker location using some of the ideas/suggestions from my discussions with Rod. ........
Laura

Would any of those suggestions help the rest of us or were they specific to your situation?

[bmckenney]

I was in Colorado over the Christmas holidays and stopped in to see Rod Tomson, owner of Soundings Hi Fi in Denver. I would call Rod a Master Set expert. I spent a few hours visiting with Rod about Master Set, the theory, etc, and then listened to some music from a set of Vienna Acoustic speakers that had been "Master Set." The sound was wonderful and as Steve has posted, I could move around the room and the sound stayed focused with a very wide sweet spot and excellent imaging, detail, bass extension, focused midrange and smooth highs. A very non-fatiguing sound.

After I returned home, I have experimented with my speaker location using some of the ideas/suggestions from my discussions with Rod. I moved my speakers a little farther apart and closer to the front wall behind the speakers. They are about 44.5" from the side walls to center of the woofer (Cardas was 56.25); the left speaker is 57.5" and the right speaker is 59.5" from the front of the woofers to the wall behind the speakers; the speakers are 116.5" apart (center of woofer to center of woofer); and I sit about 144" from the speakers. I picked up some bass slam and extension that I had lost by having the speakers farther out into the room. The current location is throwing a nice wide soundstage with focused imaging that stays centered no matter where I sit on my couch. It is very easy to close my eyes and get lost in the music. I like this speaker location better than when I used the Cardas calculator, but I am interested finding out what a Master Set will produce. Since Rod is willing to travel, I am going to use some airline miles and fly him to Spokane to do a Master Set later this winter.

Laura

Laura, didn't the speakers disappear and allow you to get lost in the music as well with the Cardas placement?  I can see how the soundstage would come across as wider by spreading the speakers apart.  But I've found that can mean a sacrifice of tone and dynamics and room energy.  And funny enough I find speakers can beam more the wider they are apart.  I guess that's not a rule of thumb though.

As tempting as MS sounds, I don't think I'll try it.  I think dipoles need not apply.  They need to be well out in the room and Cardas has nailed the position with his dipole calculator.  If I had cones I'd certainly give it a try.

I recently added a dedicated balanced two phase 240V AC circuit and a Torus RM20-BAL isolation transformer to my system and I believe that because of the attention to speaker placement and the use of bass traps, this approach to AC is yielding fantastic results.  I would rank great AC power right up there with acoustics on my own personal "importance" ranking scale, but you need the decent acoustics to realize all that it has to offer.  You need the acoustics well done to realize the best benefits of anything really.

Bryan

[vinyl_guy]

Would any of those suggestions help the rest of us or were they specific to your situation?

Jack,

I showed Rod pictures of my listening room (available in my gallery) and speakers and we discussed their current location, what I heard when I moved them utilizing the Cardas calculator (more focus and detail, smaller and narrower soundstage, a thinning in the bass). Rod suggested that given the size of my listening room (25' x 17' with a 17' peak cathederal ceiling on a 9/12 pitch), I should move the speakers closer to the wall behind the speakers (what I call the front wall) to allow that wall to help reinforce the bass. (In the Aspen Circle and I think in this thread, Steve has suggested a couple of tracks to use in finding the right location for the bass, doing one speaker at a time.) Rod also suggested that I not be locked into having the speakers the same distance from the front wall. Rod also thought I might need a sub or two given the size of my room.

I still plan to have Rod come to Spokane and set my speakers, and I will report back on that experience. It will probably be in March given my work schedule in Jan & Feb.

Laura

[vinyl_guy]

Laura, didn't the speakers disappear and allow you to get lost in the music as well with the Cardas placement?

Yes the speakers did disappear and I got lost in the music. After listening for a week or so and playing some very familiar music, I realized I had lost some soundstage depth and width and the bass had thinned. By moving them closer to the front wall and about 2 feet farther apart, the soundstage improved and the bass firmed up. I still had the clarity and detail. Before I tried the Cardas calculator, my speakers were about 33 to 36" from the side walls. At 44.5" they are in between Cardas and where I had them before.

I can see how the soundstage would come across as wider by spreading the speakers apart.  But I've found that can mean a sacrifice of tone and dynamics and room energy.  And funny enough I find speakers can beam more the wider they are apart.  I guess that's not a rule of thumb though.

I think I have found a good compromise distance from the side walls for imaging, clarity, dynamics, tone and soundstage width. My Daedalus DA-1.1s have two tweeters offset by 10 degrees which help throw a wide "sweet spot" to start with. I have not had a beaming issue with them.

As tempting as MS sounds, I don't think I'll try it.  I think dipoles need not apply.  They need to be well out in the room and Cardas has nailed the position with his dipole calculator.  If I had cones I'd certainly give it a try.

I am going to give it a try and I will report back after Rod sets my speakers per Master Set.

I would rank great AC power right up there with acoustics on my own personal "importance" ranking scale, but you need the decent acoustics to realize all that it has to offer.  You need the acoustics well done to realize the best benefits of anything really.

Bryan

I agree. I replaced a Monster Power HTS-7000 with a PS Audio Power Plant Premier a couple of years ago and it really lowered my noise floor and smoothed out the power going to my system. I live in an older neighborhood (early 1900s houses) and the power is pretty "dirty" and the voltage swings from 120 to 125 volts. The PPP is a regenerator as well as providing conditioning and surge protection and it made an audible improvement in the clarity and detail of my system. A year ago I replaced my amp with the ModWright KWA 150 and found that it I needed to plug it directly into my dedicated circuit rather than the PPP. Robin (satfrat) recommended that I try a MajikBUSS (available from GR-Research) between the wall and my amp and PPP. I did and it really cleaned up the power, lowered the noise floor and improved bass, midrange and highs. Danny will send you one to Demo and if you don't keep it, all you are out is the shipping charges. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68006.0 A great deal.

Laura

[Quiet Earth]

Rod also thought I might need a sub or two given the size of my room.

You might find that you have better than subwoofer bass when you move your speakers closer yet to the wall behind them. It's amazing how much deep bass a single eight inch woofer can produce. You have four of them  .

[jimdgoulding]

Laura, an example/graph of what can happen with close wall placement of a person's main speakers submitted by jhm731 appears above.  I'm bettin your speaks are as flat as they were designed to be at 56" off the wall behind .  You know that I think you should experiment with your triangle (i.e. bringing your speaks closer together and your seat nearer the apex of an equilateral triangle with play with toe-in).  Get all the depth of field and 3D wholesomeness and sound to images that you can.  The rear of your stage might even expand more laterally.

[jhm731]

Laura, an example/graph of what can happen with close wall placement of a person's main speakers submitted by jhm731 appears above.  I'm bettin your speaks are as flat as they were designed to be at 56" off the wall behind .  You know that I think you should experiment with your triangle (i.e. bringing your speaks closer together and your seat nearer the apex of an equilateral triangle with play with toe-in).

Jim-

I'd keep the speakers the same distance off the back wall and try moving them closer to the side walls, along with changing the listening position.

Until some MS user posts some room measurements, IMO, it's just an amusing low bass boost.

[jimdgoulding]

Jim-

I'd keep the speakers the same distance off the back wall and try moving them closer to the side walls, along with changing the listening position.

Dan suggests a bigger triangle if I'm reading him right.  But, like myself, he thinks Laura's speaks are out bout where they oughta be from the wall behind.  Here's the thing.  When speakers are spread too far apart, the first arrival sum of the midrange drivers is not combining strong enough where we sit*.  Oh, imaging is tactile alright, leading edge transients insure that, but at the expense of palpabilty, wholeness.  That round, full bodied touchable in room presence that speaks to the soul, not just the brain, may loose some of it's prerequisite dimensionality and full dynamics.  Ambience, when its in a recording, will extend deeper into the frequency range.     

*sitting too far away is another set of compromises. 

[bmckenney]

Laura, one of the benefits of MS is supposed to be a really nice radiation or dispertion resulting in good soundstage and imaging from anywhere in the room, or close to anywhere in the room.  I have heard one of my own older systems do very badly at this so I know what it's like.  Anything outside of the sweet spot resulted in a speaker beaming at me.  I do not have that problem any more, but I can't attribute it to using the Cardas placement because my setup is very different now.  Speakers on a different wall and different speakers.  But I don't rank being able to sit anywhere and having good staging and imaging and balance as important because I only sit in the sweet spot anyway.  But yesterday I tried listening to the left side of the left speaker on a side wall couch and I was amazed that I could not hear the left speaker beaming at me at all.  What I do want my speakers and room to do is give me a wall of sound with great dynamics.  If you can get that, using Cardas or MS, it's a good indicator that the speakers are coupled well to the room because of good placement.  That's just my opinion.

I also wonder if the MS thing having the speakers so close to the walls results in artificial bass boost.  It should in theory give more boost but as long as it's relatively flat and you haven't gone overboard, then its good.

I'd love to be able to have a shoot-out of MS and Cardas.  Take a decent rectangular room with some room treatment and suitable speakers and setup using both methods.  Setup to the inch by an expert in both methods.  I bet they would be placed quite differently, and I would hope they would.  And then listen for myself.  I kind of expect that it won't result in one being better than the other unless a person has some strong personal preferances that come in to play, but more a case of both being good to great sounding but also different.  And it would be interesting to have some measurements and graphs to look at too.  If I had to predict the results, I would only venture to say Cardas would have a deeper stage and MS a wider stage.  That's just based on what I think I understand about the placement differences between the two. 

Bryan

[bmckenney]

One more thing, Laura.  On the subject of distance from the front wall (side wall too I guess) and bass response.   From what I understand, but I don't know for sure, is that there are different distances from the wall that will give ideal bass response.  It's not just one distance.  I don't know what part of acoustic theory is behind this, like room nodes or wavelenghts or whatever.  For any room, I believe you can achieve ideal bass response at a couple or maybe more positions depending on room size.  Maybe it's at 4' and 6' for some room.  From what I recall from your previus posts I don't believe you were able to get the speakers out all the way to the Cardas position because of cabling.  So maybe you just don't know it, but there is another position that will give you just as good bass response as what you're getting now.  But due to constraints, you have to put them at that position which is next closest to the front wall.

I believe I read a Stereophile article where George Cardas stated that he will use another ratio that is different than the room width Golden ration if there are constraints.  And I believe the Audio Physics approach to speaker placement is all about differerent ratios too, like 1/4 or 1/3.

Bryan

[Quiet Earth]

Until some MS user posts some room measurements, IMO, it's just an amusing low bass boost.

How do you measure personal preference?

[jimdgoulding]

How do you measure personal preference?

I think live music is what is intended rather than preference.  Truth to the source may be another way of saying that.

[vinyl_guy]

You might find that you have better than subwoofer bass when you move your speakers closer yet to the wall behind them. It's amazing how much deep bass a single eight inch woofer can produce. You have four of them  .

That will be easy to do and a lot cheaper than buying a couple of subs. I'll try that this weekend and see how if affects the overall sound, dynamics, etc. Before I bought the Daedalus speakers I had a pair of B & W 804 Matrix and a mid-1980's Velodyne ULD 15 sub with a 400 w rms amp on a servo, internally was crossed over at the factory at 80hz. It muddied the bass with the Daedalus speakers so I took it out of the room.

[timztunz]

I'm pretty close to the Cardas math in my speaker placement.  And I have to tell you, moving my speakers to that position has been the single most dramatic improvement that I've made to my system, period.  My speakers in particular, needed the extra "room to run" that they got coming out further from the back wall.  Once they got the space to breathe it was a whole new ballgame entirely.  But I do believe that all system and room combinations have their own individual signatures and experimentation is the key.

[Quiet Earth]

But I do believe that all system and room combinations have their own individual signatures and experimentation is the key.

I'm not running for Governor but I approve this message.   

[vinyl_guy]

Jim-

I'd keep the speakers the same distance off the back wall and try moving them closer to the side walls, along with changing the listening position.

That was essentially my starting position before this thread started and I prefer both the Cardas side wall position and the current side wall location of the speakers.

I have tried sitting more near field to the speakers and the music loses some of its emotional hook. It is not as dynamic or full bodied. I talked to Lou Hinkley (speaker designer) about this and his belief is that these speakers need room for the sound to fully integrate across the frequency range. While each room is different, he recommends sitting somewhere between 10 and 13 feet from the speakers if the room size allows it and mine does.