[stvnharr]

Steve

I don't understand why movements of 1/4" could affect 'nodes'. To really affect bass response you are talking more like feet than inches. Its simple physics.

Nyal

Nyal,
Sumiko Importers are a local entity for you.  I suggest that you contact them for any discussion/demo of Master Set.

Steve

[TooManyToys]

Steve,

Yep, I agree.  I have to work with what I have and how much I can play.  It does sound better with this first attempt, but I have to learn more and play more.  A class would be great to attend, but that's not going to happen either.

I have a cover for the screen that I can install.  The side reflections are a tough nut.  If I can get the speakers back towards the wall, then I have a chance with some absorption on the left wall.  If not, I got a bay window issue.  The right side can be dealt with.  The flooring has something (concrete/wood/rug) but I have worked out WAF for OC's Solserene if I need absorption up top to control ringing.  As as soon as I have some time I planing on building quarter columns of 703 for the rear corners.

The reason I was asking about measurements of MS accomplishments was as a sanity check, such as you guys gave that 34" was rather far out from your experience.

[max190]

Steve & TooManyToys
I'm confused about MS.
It seems that this setup wants your spkrs very close to the front wall. What about SBIR ?... especially if you do not have any absorption on the front wall ?

[stvnharr]

Steve & TooManyToys
I'm confused about MS.
It seems that this setup wants your spkrs very close to the front wall. What about SBIR ?... especially if you do not have any absorption on the front wall ?

Max,
Yup, the speakers do seem close to the wall behind them, too close for conventional thought.  But once you hear the Master Set magic, you'll forget all that.

Steve

[max190]

Steve
Its too bad that where we tend bar is so far apart...
I would be interested in listening to your setup.


 


 

[Nyal Mellor]

I'm gonna give masterset a twirl over the holidays in my new room.... it should be perfect - its an L shaped room with the speakers on the long wall.

[stvnharr]

Nyal,
I didn't include the drawing of your room in my reply as it's easy to look at it anyway.
I've done Master Set in similar proportioned rooms, though not as large.  It can get tricky to get a balanced sound as one part of the room is gonna be a lot larger than the other.
Start with an equilateral triangle with your seat a couple feet from the wall behind you, and speakers appropriately apart. Don't be tempted to spread them way wide, or wider than a triangle position.
I've seen MS's in large rooms and the speakers are still no more than 10 feet apart.

Good luck, hope you have some success.  Maybe it'll work for you, maybe not.

Steve

[Nyal Mellor]

If I had to hazard a guess I reckon 80% or more of us have these sort of non-ideal rooms. L shaped, windows, openings, disparity in wall construction, blah blah.

Its in these non-ideal rooms that I'm interested in comparing a no-measure just listen technique, to a measure using an RTA technique. I reckon some of the ideas in MS are interesting, particularly the one about not worrying about whether you are exactly the same distance from both loudspeakers. Stay tooned.

[TooManyToys]

Nyal,

Just wanted to say thank you for doing this.

[stvnharr]

If I had to hazard a guess I reckon 80% or more of us have these sort of non-ideal rooms. L shaped, windows, openings, disparity in wall construction, blah blah.

Its in these non-ideal rooms that I'm interested in comparing a no-measure just listen technique, to a measure using an RTA technique. I reckon some of the ideas in MS are interesting, particularly the one about not worrying about whether you are exactly the same distance from both loudspeakers. Stay tooned.

Nyal,
This is much of the beauty of Master Set in that it allows great sound from most any room.  In fact rooms with openings are said to be quite good as they let the sound out of the room rather than keeping it in the room to endlessly bounce all around.

Also, the primary tenet of Master Set is that the sound we hear from the speakers comes from the pressurization of the air by the speakers, which then moves the eardrum, which the ear-brain combo decyphers into music.  The distance we are from the speakers is somewhat irrelevant.
If you get a close Master Set setup, you can pretty much sit anywhere in the room.  If you get a perfect Master Set, the clarity and realness of sound is stunning.  The former is achievable, the latter is very very hard.

Be interesting to hear how you go.

Steve

[bmckenney]

If I had to hazard a guess I reckon 80% or more of us have these sort of non-ideal rooms. L shaped, windows, openings, disparity in wall construction, blah blah.

Its in these non-ideal rooms that I'm interested in comparing a no-measure just listen technique, to a measure using an RTA technique. I reckon some of the ideas in MS are interesting, particularly the one about not worrying about whether you are exactly the same distance from both loudspeakers. Stay tooned.

Nyal,
This is much of the beauty of Master Set in that it allows great sound from most any room.  In fact rooms with openings are said to be quite good as they let the sound out of the room rather than keeping it in the room to endlessly bounce all around.

Also, the primary tenet of Master Set is that the sound we hear from the speakers comes from the pressurization of the air by the speakers, which then moves the eardrum, which the ear-brain combo decyphers into music.  The distance we are from the speakers is somewhat irrelevant.
If you get a close Master Set setup, you can pretty much sit anywhere in the room.  If you get a perfect Master Set, the clarity and realness of sound is stunning.  The former is achievable, the latter is very very hard.

Be interesting to hear how you go.

Steve

This sounds like what I have with my speakers in my room (that has an opening) using the Cardas method.  It is a holographic wall of sound.  I wager that is what you get with other placement techniques too.  I don't believe that what you describe is unique to MS.  However I have no idea if Cardas is really all that good with dramatic, diffcult rectangular rooms so I won't comment on that part.

[Quiet Earth]

I don't think the Cardas method gives me the impression of pressurizing the room. Quite the opposite at my house. Holographic Soundstage? Oh yeah, a three dimensional wonderland. But anemic, weightless, and skeletal compared to the meat on the bone quality that I get when I use the room boundaries instead of avoid them.

I will have to try the master set idea soon, although I have a hunch that I'm already using it, or a similar principle.

[bmckenney]

I don't think the Cardas method gives the me the impression of pressurizing the room. Quite the opposite at my house. Holographic Soundstage? Oh yeah, a three dimensional wonderland. But anemic, weightless, and skeletal compared to the meat on the bone quality that I get when I use the room boundaries instead of avoid them.

I will have to try the master set idea soon, although I have a hunch that I'm using it already, if not quite perfectly.

My room and speaker interaction results in a totally energized room.  Anemic?  No weight?  Skelatal?  Not at all.  It's effin unbelievably good from not only from a 3D holographic point of view, but also from an energized point of view.  You think George Cardas is going to come up with a method for speaker placement that sucks?  I have no idea if he uses boundaries or avoids them with his math.  I do know that my speakers are relatively far away from the side walls (3.3' for a 12' width room) and 6' from the front wall (length of 22').  That is placed using his math.  And it is not close to the walls, if thats what you mean by using the boundaries.  I believe that anyone using the MS would have their speakers a lot closer to both boundaries than I do right now.  So, I'd say MS proably uses boundaries more than Cardas does.  Not sure I buy what you're saying.

[Quiet Earth]

bmckenney,

What I'm saying is that I used and enjoyed the Cardas method for many years with my two full range speakers. The speakers were way out into the room as the math dictates, and I was listening in the near field escaping the effect of the room walls (i.e. avoiding room boundaries). I was in soundstage heaven. But it got tiresome and threadbare after a while. Kind of like a special effect turned on all the time. No substance, just sonic trickery.

Anyway, one day I went back to placing my speakers close to the rear wall and near the corners and I liked that sonic presentation much better. I'm not saying it is the right way to do it and the Cardas method is wrong. I'm just saying that I like the way that the room boundaries support the wave launch of the sound more than I enjoy the holographic effect. It took me a long time to find the best compromise between pressurizing the room and retaining most of the stereo imaging but I finally figured it out.

Diffusers on the side walls, just next to and in front of each speaker, help to retain the soundstage and imaging. My opinion is that most of the stereo effect we hear from in recordings is not real anyway, so getting most but not all of it back is plenty for me.

I hope that helps to explain my experience a little better  .

[bmckenney]

bmckenney,

What I'm saying is that I used and enjoyed the Cardas method for many years with my two full range speakers. The speakers were way out into the room as the math dictates, and I was listening in the near field escaping the effect of the room walls (i.e. avoiding room boundaries). I was in soundstage heaven. But it got tiresome and threadbare after a while. Kind of like a special effect turned on all the time. No substance, just sonic trickery.

Anyway, one day I went back to placing my speakers close to the rear wall and near the corners and I liked that sonic presentation much better. I'm not saying it is the right way to do it and the Cardas method is wrong. I'm just saying that I like the way that the room boundaries support the wave launch of the sound more than I enjoy the holographic effect. It took me a long time to find the best compromise between pressurizing the room and retaining most of the stereo imaging but I finally figured it out.

Diffusers on the side walls, just next to and in front of each speaker, help to retain the soundstage and imaging. My opinion is that most of the stereo effect we hear from in recordings is not real anyway, so getting most but not all of it back is plenty for me.

I hope that helps to explain my experience a little better  .

Sure does.  I know Cardas won't work in all situations.  But I thought that speaker placement and bass response (part of energizing the room) was finding the spot away from both boundaries and there are different distances where bass response will be better than others, and it is not jus one distance.  Like it could be that it's 1', 3', 6' for a given room and speaker.  And each of them will provide similar bass response.  And then you have to find the distances away from the other dimension boundary that work too.  Then find the combination of both that works overall.  I know is more like Audio Physics method than Cardas, but I just wanted to make a point that bass response can best a more than one spot, and it's not just close to the boundary.

The other point I’d like to make for best energy being away from the wall instead of close is related to the side wall.  Jim Smith the author of Get Better Sound, who pretty much makes a partial living by setting up rooms strongly recommends moving speakers closer together and away from the walls for the best dynamics and tone.  And I believe he does not use Cardas or any other math based formula.  He states that if the speakers are close to the walls, spread apart too much, you lose dynamics and tone.  I have experimented with distance from the side wall (and front wall) and I do find the best dynamics and tone is when the speakers are away from the walls rather than closer.  It just so happens Cardas math for the side wall distance is the same as what I found with my ears.

So my belief is speakers do not need to be close to the wall boundaries for superb acoustic room energy.  I believe that the best energy to be had comes when speakers are away from the walls, and it’s usually very far away from the walls.  But it won’t be the case all the time.

Bryan

[Quiet Earth]

I thought that speaker placement and bass response (part of energizing the room) was finding the spot away from both boundaries and there are different distances where bass response will be better than others, and it is not jus one distance.

Maybe that was spelled out somewhere and I missed it. It wouldn't be the first time that I have blown it  . I thought they were trying to avoid the room and emulate the anechoic chamber. I could be totally wrong on this, it has been a while. I have a rectangular room with symetrical corners.  The Cardas website has some specific instructions for a rectangular room that I followed. It says :

"The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:

Room Width times .276 (RW x .276)
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind the speaker is:

Room Width times .447 (RW x .447)
This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical, rectangular room!
"

I did get a smooth response and terrific imaging. But it is comparitavely threadbare and anemic in the mid and low bass. It is deprived of liveliness and jump factor at my house. You're right about every room having its own issues though. Maybe something else is going on over here.

I have to admit that my taste has really changed over the last few years. I like the idea of using the room boundaries to support the sound and be a part of the total sound that I hear. I also like speakers with wide baffles, which is totally improper these days. I have to close the blinds when the diffraction police drive by .

It's hell getting old . . . .

[jimdgoulding]

Don't have much to add but I am a believer in getting one's speakers and listening position out from walls and corners if possible (unless they're Klipsch cornerhorns).  Room energizing is about how sound waveforms interact with a room.  Those that are bouncing around the room shouldn't be arriving too soon to your ears else your room will impose itself on a recording.  Tonality, imaging and spaciousness is all better served if you can find the right spot, IME.  My speakers are more closely together than Kenney's in a 12'W room and only 54" from the wall behind them but my room is only 14' deep.  My listening position is that same distance from the wall behind it tho moving it back a few inches adds saturation to centered images (i.e. vocals) but at the expense of some expansion behind my speaks (maybe I'll fool around with toe-in instead).  I think a room's depth should be part of the total equation.

ps-  Guys with asymetrical rooms should try and put their speakers in the end with perpendicular walls is my suggestion.

[jriggy]

I have decided to redo Cardas in my room over the next few days. Last time I had to make some compromises also to achieve the best of all...

I want to start over but have a measuring question...

My room is 173" (14' 5") wide from left wall to right wall. But at the speakers, the wall to the right is a series of four tall 12 pane windows and their woodwork. The windows are covered in heavy velvet curtains...
If I measure the room width right in front of the speakers, the room is 178" (14'10") from left wall to the right window panes... So, the windows are inset another 5" from the woodwork and of course all behind the curtains.

Do I use the 173" room width? The 178" room width? Or maybe even split the difference?

Looking forward to starting fresh and tweaking from there again.

Jason

[jimdgoulding]

I have decided to redo Cardas in my room over the next few days. Last time I had to make some compromises also to achieve the best of all...

I want to start over but have a measuring question...

My room is 173" (14' 5") wide from left wall to right wall. But at the speakers, the wall to the right is a series of four tall 12 pane windows and their woodwork. The windows are covered in heavy velvet curtains...
If I measure the room width right in front of the speakers, the room is 178" (14'10") from left wall to the right window panes... So, the windows are inset another 5" from the woodwork and of course all behind the curtains.

Do I use the 173" room width? The 178" room width? Or maybe even split the difference?

Looking forward to starting fresh and tweaking from there again.

Jason

Jason-  Hi.  Split the difference if you can center your listening position.  And, please, tell me, at least, the depth of your room.  Also, what is between you and your speaks if anything and beside them and what kind of speaks you are using so I and we can look them up.  Back to you tomorrow.

[bmckenney]

I thought that speaker placement and bass response (part of energizing the room) was finding the spot away from both boundaries and there are different distances where bass response will be better than others, and it is not jus one distance.

Maybe that was spelled out somewhere and I missed it. It wouldn't be the first time that I have blown it  . I thought they were trying to avoid the room and emulate the anechoic chamber. I could be totally wrong on this, it has been a while. I have a rectangular room with symetrical corners.  The Cardas website has some specific instructions for a rectangular room that I followed. It says :

"The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:

Room Width times .276 (RW x .276)
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind the speaker is:

Room Width times .447 (RW x .447)
This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical, rectangular room!
"

I did get a smooth response and terrific imaging. But it is comparitavely threadbare and anemic in the mid and low bass. It is deprived of liveliness and jump factor at my house. You're right about every room having its own issues though. Maybe something else is going on over here.

I have to admit that my taste has really changed over the last few years. I like the idea of using the room boundaries to support the sound and be a part of the total sound that I hear. I also like speakers with wide baffles, which is totally improper these days. I have to close the blinds when the diffraction police drive by .

It's hell getting old . . . .

Too bad the cardas method didn't work out.  I like that your priority is dynamics and tone etc.  I think that's more important than imaging and spacial things.  If you get the room energized properly, spatial things can be tweaked for after.  It sounds like the position you used was good for reducing reflection points so you were getting a good clean stereo image, but it wasn't good for bass response.

All I can say is use whatever method works.  Try them all until you find the one that works.  Or make up your own.  As long as you have some knowledge of the fundamentals of speaker placement, even the ones that seem to be polar opposites and you have to try both, and you have the ability to place the speakers whereever you want or have to, a totally positive result should be the outcome.

Bryan