[Hantra]

I have a different perspective on this one.

It seems that there are quite a few "holier than thou" people around audio these days saying "I like it for the music!", and putting the majority of audiophiles in a category of gearheads who just like gadgets, and gear collecting.  

In actuality, the majority of people who go around spouting things like that are merely trying to imply that they are superior to all the "other" audiophile gear junkies.  It is ridiculous to think that the majority of people get involved in hifi because they like collecting gear.  If that were the case, they could be simply tweaking iPaqs all day, and buying new ones every time there was a new OS released because the current version was "voiced" to that particular OS.

They certainly have many alternatives to getting involved in something that is like a crack addiction, and where one is never truly happy for any real length of time.  

Most people get involved for the music.  All you elitests who want to say that you're in it for the music, and that makes you feel bigger, and helps justify your insane level of involvement in what we do, then more power to you.  But just realize that you are probably doing that for your own selfish reasons.  

Only beautiful music, and women could drive men to these lengths.  And chics aren't impressed by gear.

B

[DVV]

I have a different perspective on this one.

It seems that there are quite a few "holier than thou" people around audio these days saying "I like it for the music!", and putting the majority of audiophiles in a category of gearheads who just like gadgets, and gear collecting.  

Yet I find many such people will much rather talk about gear than music, and in particular, about their latest aquisition.

In actuality, the majority of people who go around spouting things like that are merely trying to imply that they are superior to all the "other" audiophile gear junkies.  It is ridiculous to think that the majority of people get involved in hifi because they like collecting gear.  If that were the case, they could be simply tweaking iPaqs all day, and buying new ones every time there was a new OS released because the current version was "voiced" to that particular OS.

I am not saying that most people get involved to buy gear, I am saying the audio industry starts squeezing them that way. I mean, just flip over the ads of several magazines, any magazines, to see what I mean. Obviously, to the vendours, this is a business, and their livlehood depends on turnover, so they have much reason to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into advertising their latest models.

People get side-tracked into this, I think.

They certainly have many alternatives to getting involved in something that is like a crack addiction, and where one is never truly happy for any real length of time.  

Agreed.

Most people get involved for the music.  All you elitests who want to say that you're in it for the music, and that makes you feel bigger, and helps justify your insane level of involvement in what we do, then more power to you.  But just realize that you are probably doing that for your own selfish reasons.  

Only beautiful music, and women could drive men to these lengths.  And chics aren't impressed by gear.

B

Er, ... who are the "you elitists"?

I can speak only for myself, and all I can say is that I still have my cherished LP collection of about 400 LPs, which I never even considered selling or swapping, and about as many CDs. If I collect anything, then it's pop music 1960-1980, that's my "sweet period", when I was a kid who was just getting into it.

Electronics I do for fun only, it's a hobby, even if it could become a job as well.

Cheers,
DVV

[Hantra]

I am not saying that most people get involved to buy gear, I am saying the audio industry starts squeezing them that way. I mean, just flip over the ads of several magazines, any magazines, to see what I mean.

You're right about that.  The high-end in general has mastered the art of marketing, and making beautiful products.  There is nothing wrong with that, but I do believe that it may spawn what you are talking about.

Er, ... who are the "you elitists"?

Anyone is an elitist when they purport themselves to be a member of a small group of people who are entitled to a special status, or treatment, just by virtue of their perceived superiority.

I am not calling anyone out in particular, but I am saying that many times, the people that utter sentences like "I'm in it for the music, and not the gear." do so with the intent to exert their perceived superiority.

Do you not agree with that?  Being an audio board junkie, I have seen it too many times, and that's what I have taken from my experience.

B

[DVV]

...

Anyone is an elitist when they purport themselves to be a member of a small group of people who are entitled to a special status, or treatment, just by virtue of their perceived superiority.

Agreed on that. Superiority has to be backed by specific deeds and achievements, not by simply wishing and declaring it to be so. Not that I see much point in proving superiority as such, in view of its very relative scope. For example, I may be superior to you in my field, but by the same token, you will be superior to me in your field.

Reminds me of an old joke - I used to be modest, but I got rid of that character fault, and now I'm perfect.

I am not calling anyone out in particular, but I am saying that many times, the people that utter sentences like "I'm in it for the music, and not the gear." do so with the intent to exert their perceived superiority.

Do you not agree with that?  Being an audio board junkie, I have seen it too many times, and that's what I have taken from my experience.

B

Of course I agree with that, I too have seen it too many times.

My reason for bringing up such matters here was to draw attention to the fact that audio has been short changed if you like, it has been commercialized way past what I would think of as normal for an industry. Too much accent is put on design, appearances, marketing, advertising campaigns, etc, and too little on the point of it all, which is good sound, as I see it.

It's come to that the sound doesn't really matter much at all any more, you have build in something nobody else has (hence those nutty acronyms like HDAM, WRAT, TRAITR, "Sustained Plateau Biasing", etc) and premeditated pushing of people towards what are and sgould be thought of as marginal things, which are now turned into the point of it all.

I am willing to bet high end audio companies invest far more into marketing than into all reserach combined - and herein lies the problem.

Mass manufacturers will rather use NJR 4558 op amps than any other because they can get them cheap, just 10 cents, rather than say AD826, which they can't have for less than $1.50. That $1.40 price difference is then multiplied by a series of say 100,000 units, allowing them to use that $140,000 for marketing rather than improving the sound of their products. Improvement is left over to the Tweak Squad, and while this is not bad unto itself (tweaking, I mean), I hope you'll agree it's hardly appropriate to have the general public devise ways of improving you own product.

Cheers,
DVV

[Lex]

There can definitely be an air of pretentiousness among the most serious and particular of audiophiles.  Maybe after the gear goes so far, all they can do is pretend they know more than the next person, and will go to any extreme to hold their ground.  I don't know.  

There's also the "mine's bigger than yours" crowd, that constantly must have the biggest and best that money can buy.  A good example of this, is a thread I saw on "gear only over 25,000" or some such.  I thought, who cares what it cost?  Does it deliver the goods!  I sometimes, wonder if some of these people really even take time to enjoy their system.

Then their's those that squeeze the most out of a limited budget, and really enjoy the music.  I think I have the most respect for this group, as they are doing this as a means to an end, not as the end itself.

As to the type of music on demo material?  Well, if you like to head bang, then by all means demo some good head banging music.  But if you want to hear the most detail, clarity, and the finesse of a system, your going to have to play some jazz, orchestra music, chamber, etc...  Simply, it's what lets a system "bloom", IMO.

I am reminded by the feeling I had in my younger days attending concerts.  At first, some rock sounded like music.  Toward the end of the show, it's just like it can become noise!  Once distortion is realized, what's left to hear?

I won't go to venues like that now without ear protection, what's left of my hearing is more important to me than that.  Protect your ears, we only get one set.   So, I will take Diana Krall, Miles Davis, John Coltraine, and many more jazz artists over head banging any day. Not only is it better on your ears, it's better on your speakers as well, and it's better on the soul too, I think.

Lex

[Hantra]

DVV,

I agree man.  Audio has been short-changed.  What can we do?

B

[cjr888]

Nice thread.  Different in the sense that I enjoy the tangents as well as the initial idea...  I plan on quoting from all sorts of people without credit, so if any of your comments are going into your autobiography, my apologies.  No comments are directed at the original posters, I just don't know how to shut up or edit.

Do we buy hardware and limit our enjoyment to ever searching for better components, or do we use it as a means to get to the music?

Do you have an emotional attachment to your system?  Not an opinion, but are you ever angry with your sound, your equipment, your room, the effect of your PLC?  Enough where it makes you tense when you listen to music?  Are you really annoyed that that one image just doesn't sound exactly like reality or hyper-reality?

Enough where you stop listening mid-way?  Enough where its very rare that you can listen to an entire album without moving your seating position, playing with placement, components?

If you do find anger or frustration or restlessness at home, listening to a system you assembled, that you've put a ton of money and effort in (_non_ DIY people)...

...do you find this same effect and feeling when you are listening to the music in the car, or do you just "listen to the music"?

If you're fine everywhere but your listening room, maybe time to slow down.

I mentioned non-DIY folks only because what's playing your music is part a reflection of your effort, and thus frustration with a system can be frustration with yourself, which is understandable.  You're now talking about your ideas, your effort, your time.

Women just want it to disappear..

You know what?  Me too.  Would be neat to get my living room back.  Just wished audio worked that way.  It would be neat to have music and imaging and that sort of stuff without staring at speakers.

Women: They just like the end, the means is inconsequential.

Imagine if we could think this way!  We'd just sit around and...listen to music.    

On one hand it's perfectly fine to make the equipment the hobby unto itself..

Music lover who found toys that can increase my smile.
Smiling brings thought.
Hmmm,  I like to smile.
Can I smile more?

Once the curiosity is alive....
Search and try, search and try.
Now your hooked.

I'm not a DIY person with a great electronics background.  I wish I was.  Your addiction for something more or something different leaves you being a creator, a modifier, a tweaker, or a swapper, or a little of both.

No matter what, once you're any of those, you either have an obsession, an addiction, or hobby.

I can tell you I never had a real interest in wanting to know much of anything about electronics and circuits until I started getting involved in these discussions.

Some folks are electronics people who enjoy music and gain a hobby.  Others were audio people who need electronics and end up learning the other way around.  Just folks starting from different spots.

We all have a bit of a similar personality trait or a similar addiction beyond personality traits.  Whether its a bit obsessive, a bit curious, a bit always wanting the best.....

I have a sound in my head for what I want to hear, and all the gear tryouts are just a means to get to that end. Once I do I hope that I stop buying stuff altogether.

Agree 100%, though it does sound like the opening line of an introduction at a 12 step meeting.

Yet I find many such people will much rather talk about gear than music, and in particular, about their latest aquisition.

Agreed.  I also find though that people find it 10x _easier_ to talk about gear than music.  More tangible, less emotional.  More common discussion.  

Back to the hobby thing.  From Merriam Webster's Dictionary:

hobby - a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation.

Are you relaxing?

Forget about playing music vs. playing with equipment -- how much time do your spend outside of your home thinking about components?

How much is to get to that end, and how much is it akin to looking at car magazines at $100k cars that you want to know everything about, and lust for, but know you'll never buy?  Have you become an audio tire kicker lusting for the centerfold?  Are you a groupie or a fan?

[gonefishin]

Well...to me...music has nothing to do with audio...but audio does have something to do with music.  In short...I enjoy music...and can do this, like many other people, on a crappy boombox with one speaker blown (like the one at work) or on a more expensive system (more expensive than our boombox).  When it comes to audio...sure, I enjoy it also!  It's a hobby of mine...but this hobby wouldn't be worth a dime if it weren't for the music...unlike the music which can be priceless with or without the audio.

        I want music in my music!

[Guan]

Another thing to consider is that human nature is such that no matter how good or expensive your system is, you WILL eventually get tired of the sound and think about changing this and that.

That's why it's useful and even advisable to have different amps, speakers etc just to swap around when you feel like a change.

Variety is definitely the spice of life!

[mgalusha]

Very interesting thread. I land somewhere in the middle in that I very much enjoy both the music and the equipment.

I need music, it is part of my essence. Having to go without music makes me a very cranky person. Someone in this thread said it's all about the emotion. I couldn't agree more. If I don't connect emotionally with it, the "quality" of the reproduction just doesn't matter. Of course high quality playback *can* make it easier to make that connection but is not a requirement.

On the equipment side, I cannot remember a time when I didn't tinker with things. Growing up we didn't have much money so my mother was a big time garage sale person. She feed my need to take things apart by bringing home any piece of electronic gear that was less than a couple of bucks. (60's/70's) Amazing how much can be learned by ripping into stuff.

The enjoyment I receive from the gear does not equal the pleasure from listening to music but it's not far behind either. Putting on some good music while working in my shop is damn near is good as it gets.

I was playing some old AC/DC tonight (reading Nathan's post made me want something loud..) while reading a magazine and the thought of "that sounds pretty fuckin' good" just popped into my head. And it did, other than sheer volume it sounded better than any AC/DC concert I can remember (not that my memories of the 70's are very clear...) and I've seen them in large and small venues, indoors and out.

At the other end of the spectrum I went to "Mahler Fest" a couple of weeks ago and had a seat very much in the sweet spot for Mahler's 6th symphony. Just for reference I closed my eyes and tried to compare the sound to my system. That made it painfully clear just how inadequate audio systems are, and I mean any system that I have ever heard. The subtle nuances, the complex harmonies of 30 violins, the awesome force of 108 people giving it their all. It was just so full bodied, so much life, energy and emotion.

So I will just continue to enjoy both the music and equipment. I know that perfection isn't possible but the enjoyment of trying new things and getting a little closer is, for me, part of the fun. If I can wring some more emotion from my system, so much the better, if not I will love my music just as much.

Mike

[Tyson]

Sad but true Mike.  Nothing I have ever heard can reproduce mahler's music properly compared to a good live performance.  The best systems create Mahler's "world", but a good live performance show's you his uinverse.

[DVV]

...

As to the type of music on demo material?  Well, if you like to head bang, then by all means demo some good head banging music.  But if you want to hear the most detail, clarity, and the finesse of a system, your going to have to play some jazz, orchestra music, chamber, etc...  Simply, it's what lets a system "bloom", IMO. ...

Lex

Agreed, BUT! Don't you think it's a bit suspicious and/or telling when they move to the other extreme, which is to play ONLY light jazz, chamber music, etc? Don't you think some really fast and complex material should also be there?

I am not a head banger, but I do listen to some such music - Hevia being a great example, Vangelis another, etc.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

JohnR, I think it's great that you always seem to be building something new, and never seem to be satisfied.

Thanks Jerry, but... um, I am satisfied . Well, to the extent that I've figured out what I enjoy doing and also what I want my systems to look like. Now all I have to do is finish building them, but I'm not in a that much of a hurry. I'll get there

I'm still mystified that people have this either/or thing about gear and music. It's like, I don't like listening to music because I like building equipment. What an odd assumption!

I think that maybe part of being happy with this hobby is realizing that all you will ever produce is a facsimile of the real thing.

[eric the red]

I went to see a live performance last night and I sat there listening and wondering why in god's name anyone would ever want to capture what I was hearing in their room as it sounded way more hard-edged, bright and LOUD then anything that I ever listen to for 3 hours at a time so the old "as close to the live performance that I can in my own room" bs just isn't the quasi-intellectual answer sorry folks but there's nothing noble about this hobby and the new formats are not going to change the world (Remember when Phil Hartman's character on the Simpsons sells them the monorail that Springfield doesn't need?) it's all just a big sales job by cliche-spouting hucksters who will tell you anything you want to hear to keep the big sales wheel turning until you end up in a parking lot in South Seattle listening to some bitter middle-aged fool rant about getting off the train for good because he finally figured out how badly he had been duped and quit wasting his time and money while you buy his last piece of crack cocaine audio junk from him and run home until one day you realize that you have 6000.00 worth of your own audio junk that you don't even like sitting in your room so you just walk away and quit one day and move on and that's that.

[JohnR]

   

What a great post to read to end the day! Now I'm going to with a on my face

[seppstefano]

> Why do we have audio, to listen to music, or to listen to components?

I guess that only personal point of view is meaningful. In my experience, I like music since a child, I like to play/sing (my neighbours are not so happy... ) , so I like listening to music, of course.

Thus said, of course I try to enjoy it as best as possible. That is, 1) make music, 2) experience "live" music, 3) having it reproduced.

> Do we buy audio to impress people, or to enjoy it?

The 2nd, else we would be very sad people...

> Do we buy hardware and limit our enjoyment to ever searching for better components, or do we use it as a means to get to the music?
> Do we need top flight systems to enjoy the music? Can music not be enjoyed with lesser systems as well?

No, we would not really need the TOP. But

1) if you can hear better (if you have had the opportunity to...) you try to reach it...
2) sometimes a strange upgrade virus, similar to collectionism (I guess), takes me, and I end up with looking for a better speaker, or cable, or whatever...

> Why is it automatically assumed that bigger price means better audio?

This is a typically marketing rule. At sensible level related to facts: quality costs.

> Why are demos very often limited to inherently quieter types of music, like light jazz, some soul, a bit of chamber music? Where is the adrenaline packed stuff? Why isn't that demoed - perhaps because very low power magical audio simply dies with anything with a dynamic range exceeding 7-8 dB?

So called, audiophile recordings are often about music with a few of instruments/players. IMHO this discs are often instrumental, i.e. only a mean to make the component sound as best as possible and, definitely, let it be sold. If you listen to Symphonic music, e.g., you can get adrenaline... but listen also to also Bach, "Dorica". A great organ... ever heard "live" and sufficiently "near" (your stomach starts moving by itself).

> Please, PLEASE, feel free to add your own questions.

Cheers,
DVV

Only my 0.02.

Regards from Italy,

Stefano

Yesterday evening: Bach Brandeburg Concertos 4-5, Musica Antiqua Koln.

[nathanm]

I am not a head banger, but I do listen to some such music - Hevia being a great example...

  Earth to Dejan!  Come in Dejan, are you there? Let me see if I have this straight...you think that Hevia stuff is erm, "headbanging"!?  Please, you can't be serious...that stuff was like Celtic-tinged New Age fer cripes sakes!  Did I play the wrong disc or something!?  That's an order of magnitude away from anything even remotely metal!  I mean come on, if Hevia is metal then the Chieftains should open for Slayer fer cryin' out loud! Cripes, Bluegrass is closer to being "headbanging" than Hevia is!  Carl Orff "Carmina Burana" might even be more "headbanging" than Hevia!  Well, I've only heard the disc you sent with the DeZorel, so if he has anything 100x more intense than that on his other albums, which I doubt, then maybe I'd believe you.

Hey, you can head bang to whatever rhythm you want, but to associate Hevia with metal is highly absurd!    I know Audiojerry liked the disc, maybe he could set ya straight!

Now Vangelis I have no idea about except for the fact that The Fucking Champs have a song called "Vangelis Again" and they are a metal band.  But then again, they also have a song called "Andreas Segovia Interests Me" and that sure as hell doesn't make Andreas metal! Har!

[DVV]

I am not a head banger, but I do listen to some such music - Hevia being a great example...

  Earth to Dejan!  Come in Dejan, are you there? Let me see if I have this straight...you think that Hevia stuff is erm, "headbanging"!?  Please, you can't be serious...that stuff was like Celtic-tinged New Age fer cripes sakes!  Did I play the wrong disc or something!?  That's an order of magnitude away from anything even remotely metal!  I mean come on, if Hevia is metal then the Chieftains should open for Slayer fer cryin' out loud! Cripes, Bluegrass is closer to being "headbanging" than Hevia is!  Carl Orff "Carmina Burana" might even be more "headbanging" than Hevia!  Well, I've only heard the disc you sent with the DeZorel, so if he has anything 100x more intense than that on his other albums, which I doubt, then maybe I'd believe you.

Hey, you can head bang to whatever rhythm you want, but to associate Hevia with metal is highly absurd!    I know Audiojerry liked the disc, maybe he could set ya straight!

Now Vangelis I have no idea about except for the fact that The Fucking Champs have a song called "Vangelis Again" and they are a metal band.  But then again, they also have a song called "Andreas Segovia Interests Me" and that sure as hell doesn't make Andreas metal! Har!

OK, OK, Nate, don't lose your shirt, old son.

The term "headbanger" used to imply a person who uses associated audio equipment at inordinately high volume levels, playing rock, hard rock, har HARD rock, lighet alloy metal, medium rare metal and really well done metal. Hence, I assumed the reference was to volume rather than type of music.

I see from your text above that "headbanger" now means a heavy metal fan, which I assume also means inordinate volume levels. In that context, Hevia certainly doesn't get anywhere near that territory. That also means I can rest easy, because I also don't go anywhere near headbanger territory (though on occassion, I have been known to turn up the volume seriously high).

Vangelis writes mostly movie music (e.g. Bladerunner). It's mostly a combination of electronic music and classic orchestra, very often intelaced with some great singing by somebody. I would call his music both interesting and sophisticated.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

Interesting...I never heard it defined that way.  Sound waves 'banging' against your head, eh?  I suppose that makes sense.  I've always known it to mean metal fan, as indicated by the up and down swinging of the 'ol noggin to an appropriate mid-paced beat. (causes lots of neck pain though, I stay away from it as much as possible.  Maybe "Amplitude Connisseur" is a more appropriate term for the type you're talking about!  Heh!

[DVV]

Interesting...I never heard it defined that way.  Sound waves 'banging' against your head, eh?  I suppose that makes sense.  I've always known it to mean metal fan, as indicated by the up and down swinging of the 'ol noggin to an appropriate mid-paced beat. (causes lots of neck pain though, I stay away from it as much as possible.  Maybe "Amplitude Connisseur" is a more appropriate term for the type you're talking about!  Heh!

A small difference in view of the geographical difference. Though Internet has seen to it that geography means diddly these days. It took its sweet time, but better late than never.

Ciao,
DVV