am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC

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charmerci

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #40 on: 15 Nov 2009, 01:38 am »

Am I doing something wrong with my DAC, or is there something wrong with the CD recording?

My AVA system is not as good as yours. But I have a few CD's including aforementioned Discovered Again and Bill Evan's Waltz for Debby (1961) that when I turn it up to almost live levels - in the dark with my eyes closed, it really sounds like they ARE playing in the room. But they're only a few of these CD's. So my vote is that there's something wrong with the CD recording but probably just as often the mastering.

addition-

I've heard/had early CD's (pre-late-90's) which had rolled off highs and were dull - then I would listen to the 24-bit remastered and then the lows were lower and more solid and the highs were higher and more crisp but they sounded very metallic (I guess that's the "digital" sound audiophiles talk about.)  Interestingly, I haven't had that effect with 20-bit jazz remasters.
« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2009, 12:29 pm by charmerci »

strat95

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #41 on: 15 Nov 2009, 04:21 am »
I had a similar experience of CDs not sounding good but under different conditions.

I took my AVA equipment to a friends house who also had AVA equipment.  We combined all of the best components and proceeded to play some song selections.  Most songs which I thought sounded really good at home, sounded like crap at his place.  On the other hand, all the selections my friend played sounded stunning.  I chose rock songs while he chose jazz.  It didn't make sense to me at the time, but I realized that my system has limitations that did not allow me to hear the limitations of the recordings.  Those limitations were very obvious at his home.

One of the albums we listened to was Bob Dylan's Time Out Of Mind which was rated highly in Stereophile and other publications as having great sound quality.  After hearing the recording at my friend's house, we disagree with that assessment.  It is not an audiophile record by any means.

One CD that did sound amazing was Beck's Sea Change.  Although it has been mastered loud, it still sounded fantastic.

Perhaps you should try out some jazz, or some other rock recordings, to see if you find the sound to be more audiophile or as appealing as your vinyl.

I doubt very much there is anything wrong with the AVA gear.

TV

rcag_ils

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #42 on: 17 Nov 2009, 10:59 pm »
I think most of you are on the right track that recording companies have not mastered the technique of mastering older recordings onto CDs.

Also the natural deterieration of the original analog master tapes, so it doesn't really matter how you master them or convert them on CDs, they are still lacking the very soul of the original recording.

The reason that audiophiles are clinging to the original vinyl format has a lot to do with the tweakability of the turntable setup, tonearms and cartridges. How many times that you have noticed after installing a different tonearm, or cartridge on your turntable, or just change out the old stylus, and the sound got better. If it turned out to be worse, that you probably will do it again until the sound is satisfactory to you. Then you put on the CDs from the same era, and it just sounds so, so.

I suspect that CD may be more scientifically superior than the vinyl record in the newer recording.

dB Cooper

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #43 on: 18 Nov 2009, 03:12 pm »
I think most of you are on the right track that recording companies have not mastered the technique of mastering older recordings onto CDs.


It's not that they don't know how to do it, it's just that it takes a lot of work to do it right and time equals money, so the common procedure seems to be just to turn on some ADC, roll the tape, and release whatever comes out the other end. (As Frank Zappa said, "It's only 'product' to them.") Since older recordings were mixed and mastered for an all analog signal chain, if this isn't taken into account in digital remastering, you often end up with ear-splitting treble. Chick Corea's "The Leprechaun" and Vassar Clements' "The Bluegrass Sessions" are two in my collection that come to mind. The sound on these is clean but unlistenably bright without turning the high end down quite a bit.

Waker

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #44 on: 19 Nov 2009, 07:09 am »
I know your frustration, Rcag--I've been there.  I am not so sure I would blame the production quality of all those early CDs, however. You can always find those modern CDs with sonic qualities that would flatter even a clock radio, but is that what you want to limit your CD collection with?  There are plenty of redbook issues of 70's rock that really are dynamic for their time, but it is just not as easy to bring that out below a certain level of playback capability.  If you had 2K to spend on a new turntable or a CD player, the turntable at that price point will usually outplay the CD player, especially with separates like you have, which do not interface well unless you use a very good cable.  If you are using Radio Shack patch cords....stick with your turntable.  On the cheap end of the price spectrum, you really do get what you pay for---not much.  The thing about CD playback is that you really do need to spend some money, and this is a hard truth I have learned over the years.  And I have paid a lot for CD playback, but that is the format I committed to, and it needs a lot of help. It is a very harsh environment where that CD is spinning--full of lots of noise and vibration compared to the carefully isolated turntable from its motor.         

turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #45 on: 19 Nov 2009, 04:47 pm »
really do get what you pay for---not much.  The thing about CD playback is that you really do need to spend some money, and this is a hard truth I have learned over the years.  And I have paid a lot for CD playback, but that is the format I committed to, and it

For a long time I have used an AVA DAC fed by various inexpensive CD players. My DAC was originally one of the first built by AVA and it's been upgraded over the years, so I haven't had to lay out lots of money all at once.

The most recent iteration is with a $50 Philips DVD player. I get sound that is as good or better than what some of my friends get after spending many thousands of dollars on CD transports and DACs.

Quote
needs a lot of help. It is a very harsh environment where that CD is spinning--full of lots of noise and vibration compared to the carefully isolated turntable from its motor.       

You're thinking in analog turntable terms. Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player. The inside of a CD player is also not really a harsh environment.

Getting the data off of a compact disc is a solved problem. It can be done perfectly well by a $10 device imported from Duckburg or wherever Walmart gets their electronics from.

There is work to be done once you get to the DAC. Different types of DACs, and then the analog section after the converter. Opinions vary on what works best. The DAC is where you should put your money, not in the transport.





Brett Buck

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #46 on: 19 Nov 2009, 10:17 pm »
And I have paid a lot for CD playback, but that is the format I committed to, and it needs a lot of help. It is a very harsh environment where that CD is spinning--full of lots of noise and vibration compared to the carefully isolated turntable from its motor.       

      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.  It's a fundamentally different issue than a turntable. Getting the bits off the disc is not an issue and if you do that there is *no* degradation regardless of the "environment".

    Brett

Waker

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #47 on: 20 Nov 2009, 02:07 pm »
Quote
      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.
Quote
Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player.
 
On the contrary, Brett and Turkey,  there are many articles on the sources of signal degradation that finally come out of a DAC.  Noise and vibration from motors and actuators and timing variations all contribute to jitter, a concept some just don't believe in, even though the literature is overwhelming.  Enter keywords "CD jitter."   

ecramer

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #48 on: 20 Nov 2009, 02:32 pm »
Quote
      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.
Quote
Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player.
 
On the contrary, Brett and Turkey,  there are many articles on the sources of signal degradation that finally come out of a DAC.  Noise and vibration from motors and actuators and timing variations all contribute to jitter, a concept some just don't believe in, even though the literature is overwhelming.  Enter keywords "CD jitter."

I have to agree with Walker here. If you think your $50 cdp is doing a great job fine but  do your self a favor and try a better transport.

Turkey take your dac over to your friends house with the expensive transport and give it a listen
If you dont think cdp / transports make a difference you should spend some tome in the the Empirical Audio and do some reading about jitter and cdp's

ED
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2009, 10:04 pm by ecramer »

turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #49 on: 20 Nov 2009, 02:36 pm »
Quote
      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.
Quote
Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player.
 
On the contrary, Brett and Turkey,  there are many articles on the sources of signal degradation that finally come out of a DAC.  Noise and vibration from motors and actuators and timing variations all contribute to jitter, a concept some just don't believe in, even though the literature is overwhelming.  Enter keywords "CD jitter."

Enter keywords "It's not audible unless your equipment is badly broken." :)

Jitter exists. There's no doubt about that. However, it's not audible in modern equipment.

Just another hobgoblin brought to you by the high-end audio industry so you'll keep buying expensive crap. The audio press is right there in the thick of it, slinging s**t as fast as they can.





turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #50 on: 20 Nov 2009, 02:42 pm »
Quote
      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.
Quote
Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player.
 
On the contrary, Brett and Turkey,  there are many articles on the sources of signal degradation that finally come out of a DAC.  Noise and vibration from motors and actuators and timing variations all contribute to jitter, a concept some just don't believe in, even though the literature is overwhelming.  Enter keywords "CD jitter."

I have to agree with Walker here. If you think your $50 cdp is doing a great job fine but  do your self a favor and try a better transport.

Turkey take your dac obver to your friends house with the expensive transport and givre it a liseten
If you dont think cdp / transports meke a difference you should spend some tome in the the Empirical Audio and do some reading about jitter and cdp's

ED

<sigh>

I'm well aware of what he says. I'm also aware of how badly he gets spanked every time he tries to sling his bull to professionals in the industry. It's like a game of whack-a-mole with SN popping up and getting slammed down.


avahifi

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #51 on: 20 Nov 2009, 03:08 pm »
If transports made a difference, then you should see differences in the spelling, eloquence, and grammar on your text messages depending upon which format you stored them on.  :)

Frank

ecramer

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #52 on: 20 Nov 2009, 03:20 pm »
If transports made a difference, then you should see differences in the spelling, eloquence, and grammar on your text messages depending upon which format you stored them on.  :)

Frank

Your circle and i know how we cant come to anagrement on that so i will bow out of this conversation


ED

oneinthepipe

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #53 on: 20 Nov 2009, 04:36 pm »
I can hear a difference when using different transports, such as a CDP or a computer.  I had a very bad experience with a $39.99 DVP that I tried to use as a transport, and Frank hypothesized that the DVP was throwing noise into the system.  The fix was easy; I took the DVP out of the system.  Notwithstanding, there is a sonic difference (no double blind or anything) between a track played on a Marantz CD5001 that I use as a CD transport and the same track that I burned on my computer, both played through the same DAC.  I don't know why there is a difference, and the difference might be due to noise, etc., but there is a difference, in my experience.

Brett Buck

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #54 on: 20 Nov 2009, 07:05 pm »
Quote
      But that noise and vibration mean absolutely nothing in terms of the signal coming out.
Quote
Noise and vibration are not really problems inside a normal CD player.
 
On the contrary, Brett and Turkey,  there are many articles on the sources of signal degradation that finally come out of a DAC.  Noise and vibration from motors and actuators and timing variations all contribute to jitter, a concept some just don't believe in, even though the literature is overwhelming.  Enter keywords "CD jitter."

     Thanks for that little lecture, but I have worked with stuff like this all my professional life, so I am pretty well up on how to do it. This is really not much more than 70's TTL logic and as a matter of fact, in terms of reading digital data and converting it to an analog signal, it works virtually identically to a satellite control system*  that I used to work on that was designed in 1968.
 
 Jitter is only a problem when you design the DAC incorrectly, i.e. "whenever the word is read, I will switch the input to the A/D output" vice 'I will switch the input of the A/D to the next word on the leading edge of my 44.1 khz clock". If you do the latter, it's a no-brainer, the jitter by definition NEVER gets to the output, there can be no argument.

     I don't have to "believe" in anything. That's the nice thing about science, mathematics, and engineering, it gives definitive answers. I would also note that the vast majority of the "audio" world is arranged more along the lines of reading goat entrails, astrology, or "The Sting" than engineering principles. So I have no doubt that you can get all the disc dampers, green magic markers, and magic good-sounding bricks for CD players that you want, and endless purple prose about why you need it. I mean, there are still idiots buying $3000 interconnect cables - if you can convince people on that, they are ripe for the plucking.

    I would also argue that the relative effect of any magnitude of jitter arising from the former method. You get this tiny timing variation from word to word, then run the output through a very sharp-cutting filter with a bandpass of about half the bit rate. That alone greatly washes out any timing variation. But at least you could argue that - you can't argue the first.

    The only legitimate point you could possibly have is RF noise coming out of the box - but that has nothing to do with jitter or the bits that are retrieved from the disc, which was what we were discussing.

    Brett


*DSCS II satellite, a box called the Despin Electronics Assembly, took a digital word from an Earth sensor up/down counter, waited for a clock leading edge, converted it to an analog voltage by applying it to an D/A converter, that then ran the resulting through an PID control system (an amplifier with some intentionally reactive elements) that resulted in an analog torque signal to a motor that turned a despun antenna platform. The essential elements are identical - so it's not like reading the bits off a CD is some new hard problem to solve, In fact it was common knowledge back in 1968.

Wayner

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #55 on: 20 Nov 2009, 07:52 pm »
Brett,

I agree with you, but you are forgetting one very important thing. The CD is an optical device, therefore, it is prone to dirt and damage to the surface of the protective layer, resulting in possible read errors. Most of the time, that would result in a skip, but I do wonder about micro abrasions that are present and have to be an obstacle to a quality read.

Wayner

turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #56 on: 20 Nov 2009, 07:59 pm »
I can hear a difference when using different transports, such as a CDP or a computer.  I had a very bad experience with a $39.99 DVP that I tried to use as a transport, and Frank hypothesized that the DVP was throwing noise into the system.  The fix was easy; I took the DVP out of the system.  Notwithstanding, there is a sonic difference (no double blind or anything) between a track played on a Marantz CD5001 that I use as a CD transport and the same track that I burned on my computer, both played through the same DAC.  I don't know why there is a difference, and the difference might be due to noise, etc., but there is a difference, in my experience.

So we have two unrelated issues here.

One is that you had a defective DVD player that was screwing up your system. Fine.

The other is that you feel you hear a difference between a bitstream from a CD versus the same bitstream stored on your computer's HD. That could be a number of things, and not necessarily anything to do with jitter or the quality of your transport.




turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #57 on: 20 Nov 2009, 08:05 pm »
Brett,

I agree with you, but you are forgetting one very important thing. The CD is an optical device, therefore, it is prone to dirt and damage to the surface of the protective layer, resulting in possible read errors. Most of the time, that would result in a skip, but I do wonder about micro abrasions that are present and have to offer and obstacle to quality read.

Wayner

Error correction either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the output should be muted for the duration of the error.

There's no room for wishy-washy here, no small scratches causing partial errors, or things somehow stressing out the error-correction circuitry and making it "sound bad."


Wayner

Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #58 on: 20 Nov 2009, 09:25 pm »
If I recall correctly, error correction is not created equal. Check this out: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/cd-recordable/2-17-Why-don-t-audio-CDs-use-error-correction.html

Wayner 

turkey

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Re: am I doing something wrong with my Ultra DAC
« Reply #59 on: 20 Nov 2009, 09:58 pm »
If I recall correctly, error correction is not created equal. Check this out: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/cd-recordable/2-17-Why-don-t-audio-CDs-use-error-correction.html

Wayner

You're right. I was thinking of CD-ROM.