[oneinthepipe]

I can hear a difference when using different transports, such as a CDP or a computer.  I had a very bad experience with a $39.99 DVP that I tried to use as a transport, and Frank hypothesized that the DVP was throwing noise into the system.  The fix was easy; I took the DVP out of the system.  Notwithstanding, there is a sonic difference (no double blind or anything) between a track played on a Marantz CD5001 that I use as a CD transport and the same track that I burned on my computer, both played through the same DAC.  I don't know why there is a difference, and the difference might be due to noise, etc., but there is a difference, in my experience.

So we have two unrelated issues here.

One is that you had a defective DVD player that was screwing up your system. Fine.

The other is that you feel you hear a difference between a bitstream from a CD versus the same bitstream stored on your computer's HD. That could be a number of things, and not necessarily anything to do with jitter or the quality of your transport.

Yes, I had a defective DVP, and I appreciate Frank's help in diagnosing the problem (and for putting so much energy and resources into his equipments' power supplies). 

Yes, the difference could be related to a number of things, which is why I would use the "best" bitstream source that I could reasonably use.

Anyway, turkey, I hadn't seen you in a while, and I am happy to see you back on the AVA forum.

[Waker]

I mean, there are still idiots buying $3000 interconnect cables

Yes, that would be me with my Transparent cables.  They were actually more than 3K, not even mentioning the interconnects.  Call me an idiot anytime you want, but I am hearing redbook CDs as vinyl.  There is a lot more potential in a standard-issue CD than most people ever get to hear. I am one who is hearing at that level of performance.  For digital playback, I have trusted the expert technicians at Great Northern Sound Company, who have lectured me on the inherent problems in the CD environment.  Please check out their site.  They provide extensive modifications to reduce noise and vibration in even very good players such as those made by Wadia.  I sure am glad I live in Minnesota, where we have not only Frank, whom I have sat and talked with a number of times, but also guys like Steve Huntley, who is known throughout the industry for his integrity and expertise.  I have no background in electronics--I am a plug-and-play listener, and I have listened carefully at both ends of the spectrum, defined by my budget, of course.  You can measure all you want, but in the end, it is what you hear that pleases you, and I am one pleased idiot.           

[turkey]

I mean, there are still idiots buying $3000 interconnect cables

Yes, that would be me with my Transparent cables.  They were actually more than 3K, not even mentioning the interconnects.  Call me an idiot anytime you want, but I am hearing redbook CDs as vinyl.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'd be willing to recommend some equipment so that you
hear CDs as CDs, instead of as LPs.

There is a lot more potential in a standard-issue CD than most people ever get to hear. I am one who is hearing at that level of performance.

Yes, we bow down in your direction, Oh Mighty One.

Puhleeze! Plenty of people hear exactly what is on a CD, and they don't need $3K wire or expensive CD players to do it.

 

only Frank, whom I have sat and talked with a number of times, but also guys like Steve Huntley, who is known throughout the industry for his integrity and expertise.

Never heard of him. Where did he get his degree? What papers has he published? What research has he done?

[Waker]

I'm sorry to hear that. I'd be willing to recommend some equipment so that you
hear CDs as CDs, instead of as LPs.

I can't stop laughing.......

Yes, we bow down in your direction, Oh Mighty One.

Hilarious stuff, Turkey.  Forgive my stilted style there. Isn't this the week where some turkey gets pardoned?  I pardon you.  You may rise and go now. 

Puhleeze! Plenty of people hear exactly what is on a CD, and they don't need $3K wire or expensive CD players to do it.

Are you sure you are hearing everything?  I was too---until I jumped up a few levels.  Now I know.  Your first clue:  High fidelity does not begin at Best Buy, nor at Home Depot.   

 

Steve Huntley, who is known throughout the industry for his integrity and expertise.

Seriously, check out greatnorthernsound.com

Look at the personnel and their backgrounds and the services they provide.  (Sorry, you can't get your hair done there.) 

[avahifi]

These guys (Great Northern Sound) made a presentation at the Minnesota Audio Society a few months ago.

They passed around one of their transports that had damping material affixed to it here and there.  To my "tap test" it seemed to be too hard to be doing much good, but then again that was no scientific test.

They seem to be adding a lot of power supply capacitors (energy wells they call them) but I heard no mention about calculating the impedance of the power supplies.  Knowing the impedance, and how to significantly lower it, can make a huge musical difference in a given component.

I did ask if they did an investigation with test instruments on various units they work on before starting to try and figure out the worst case problems.  They answered that they used to do this, but now the have so much experience that they know what to do to with most anything they work on.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine.

[rcag_ils]

I did ask if they did an investigation with test instruments on various units they work on before starting to try and figure out the worst case problems.  They answered that they used to do this, but now the have so much experience that they know what to do to with most anything they

Sure, now they just know.....Frank should have asked them how they used to do it before they gained all that experience. I bet then they would have said something like "the issue is too complex for you to understand."

They look like a group of cults in black uniform, kind of scary looking. Maybe I should ask them how would they modify an Ultra 550 amp.


The only person that I know that would answer technical question in the audio industry is Frank.

[turkey]

They seem to be adding a lot of power supply capacitors (energy wells they call them) but I

Energy wells? I guess they need to come up with a fancy name to convince people to buy their stuff since they can't defend their work on its technical merits.

Do they actually wire them in-circuit, or is the fancy name enough?

I did ask if they did an investigation with test instruments on various units they work on before starting to try and figure out the worst case problems.  They answered that they used to do this, but now the have so much experience that they know what to do to with most anything they work on.

I'd get fired if I tried to pull something like that.

I guess these guys don't have bosses that know how things should be done. (In other words, their customers are clueless.)

[rcag_ils]

It seems like the ones who claim to know how to modify audio equipment always just put more capacitors in the power supply. Their magic words are  "Black Gate, Black Gate, Black Gate, Black Gate"

The folks at Minnesota Audio Society seem intelligent, what motivated them to invite these guys to do a representation is beyond me.

[turkey]

The folks at Minnesota Audio Society seem intelligent, what motivated them to invite these guys to do a representation is beyond me.

Everyone needs a good laugh from time to time.

[turkey]

I just took a look at their web site, and it seems to be another case of "those that can't do, tweak." They seem to be salesmen and repair technicians.

I'm not sure what the story is with the black leather, and I probably don't want to know.

[turkey]

I used to have Transparent cables throughout my system, which I had purchased on faith. (I used to be a sucker.) One day I decided to sack up and compare them to something costing

I first ran across "audiophile" wire when Monster Cable started selling their products. Their RCA-RCA patch cords were quite fancy-looking, and everyone at the store was making all kinds of claims of how you'll reach nirvana if you just use these cables.

So I bought a pair and went home and tried them out. I didn't hear any difference between them and the cheap cables that came from Shadio Rack.

They didn't want to take back the Monster wire the next day, but I insisted and got my money back.

Ever since then I have seen and heard nothing to make me change my mind. I've got some cheap patch cords that came with equipment, some that I made myself from Belden 1505F, and some from Blue Jeans Cable.

I don't really hear any difference between the various wires, but the Blue Jeans ones are constructed very nicely.

[mark funk]

I should not say any thing, it has nothing to do with DACs, and I don't want to start it all over again, but, I have patch cords from the 60s ( came with a Dyna FM-3 I think) and from the 70s and 80s and 90s and now the 2000s. I have two boxs full of patch cords. I really can't hear any thing from one to the other. I do use Belden cable made by Blue Jeans Cable with every thing. Not becaues it sounds better, but because they look cooler and they are made very well. I would go on but Martyo is here to pick up his new RCA NOS NIB 6CG7 clear tops

[Waker]

Well Rcag, you are caught in a maze of bewilderment and confusion regarding your disappointment with your CD playback.  Let's see, you prefer your LPs because you love that sound, but the LP medium is so full of distortion, it is all an illusion, and your CDs actually must sound better because of superior digital technology, even though yours sound lousy, but you really just have to get used to that lousy sound, because the really nice LP sound is just an illusion you have been cruelly conditioned to and you should not even like it, but you can't help yourself.  And you must disregard that the goal of digital playback techology these past 25 has been to achieve that lost sound quality of analog from vinyl, yes, just ignore all of that and keep listening to that cheap, irritating CD sound, feeling reassured that even Frank admits his own DAC cannot match a turntable.  I won't put down Frank's DAC--I have not heard one--but he himself has spoken.  Keep wondering, Rcag, "What am I doing wrong with my Ultra DAC?  It cannot possibly be the DAC itself, I mean, that would be beyond the realm of reality---just forget it.  Could it be my 4lb, $79 CD player, or my $3.79 patch cords?  Impossible!  I've been told dozens of times that these things just don't matter "  The audio press is to blame, yes, that's it! It's all a big conspiracy, hell, it's global .  They are trying to sell us expensive junk , when you can just as well buy cheap junk! They have sown doubt within you, adding to your confusion.  So what is left for you, Rcag?  Uh oh, it's the CDs!. Sure, that's it--- 95% of them are just plain lousy!. Yes, they purposely made them that way just so we would all spend more......damn, they are in with the audio industry on this! Holy Crap!  Look out the windows, check for circling, black helicopters.......Ok, don't see any, whew!  OK, just calm down and put on some music.  But what.....LP or CD???     No harm intended, I'm just glad we all have this hobby, no matter where we are.  Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone!

[martyo]

Happy Thanksgiving guys.     

[Wayner]

Actually, the dynamic range of many CDs has been tampered with to allow the CD to be played in anything from cheap boom-boxes, to car stereos, to low, medium as well as high fi systems. If you have ever had the privilege to be in a recording studio and hear what is on the tape, you will wonder what is going on. To illustrate that even further, purchase a CD by Telarc called Holst-The Planets. On the cover is a warning, that the music is "uncompressed" and that the volume level control must be carefully monitored, as the dynamic range is faster then your feet or the remote control and your speakers, amp or both will be smoldering. CDs are capable of +100 db of dynamic range. Do you really want your music to have that much bandwidth? Listen to Holst the Planets, and you may have a different opinion. It's hard to listen to.

Wayner

[Art_Chicago]

well, it is nice to have you back to the Circle, BrianM!

[Brett Buck]

I mean, there are still idiots buying $3000 interconnect cables

Yes, that would be me with my Transparent cables.  They were actually more than 3K, not even mentioning the interconnects.  Call me an idiot anytime you want, but I am hearing redbook CDs as vinyl.       

 Fine, it's your money and if it makes you happy I certainly don't want to interfere with that. But I would appreciate it if you just said that, instead of feeling compelled to come up with utter BS technical explanations and then lecturing the rest of us about how foolish we are for not understanding it. Why are you compelled to rationalize your choices to the rest of us? You clearly don't know anything about the topic other than "I like it" or what others who want to sell you $1.50 worth of wire for $3000 assert. Fine, you like it. That's not an engineering problem and can't be discussed objectively. Listening to music is an emotional issue. Reproducing music is entirely an objective engineering issue.

    So I apologize to you for the "idiot" comment. That was my emotional reaction to being lectured by you on a topic you clearly don't understand, so I was making the same mistake you are. I won't waste a lot of time discussing the actual issues, or lack there of, associated with damping stray resonances and timing jitter, since you clearly have something you like whether it makes any sense to the rest of the world or not.

   Several of us are highly experienced engineers in various areas were actual objective engineering analysis and results are critical. And therefore have developed quite outstanding methods for determining the accuracy of engineering assertions. We call them "BS detectors" where I work.  And I might note that one of the first serious discussions on the entire topic of "stray resonances" was brought to the world by one Frank Van Alstine as a real engineering issue in about 1982. Just about every "damping" product/discussion since then, sensible or not, started out with that discussion.

      Since I don't think you are interested in the actual reasoning involved, here's a clue for you - if the lead engineer for a particular field of investigation thinks it's silly, you might consider the possibility that he is right. I don't accept such "proof by authority" but that's the essence of your argument, so I would expect that statements from the leading authority on the topic might carry some weight.

   Engineering can only solve *actual* problems - it can't address your emotional states. All any audio system can do it pass the information along as it was laid down on the original media. Adding additional dingleberries that "make it sound like vinyl" is not a legitimate engineering approach, cannot be resolved by any rational discussion as the issue is entirely in the eyes of the beholder. It's going to "work" great in some case and terrible in others. I recognize that the nearly the entire audio scam industry depends on this, but that's why I come here instead of the "which $10000 cryoed power cable sounds the best this week" circle - to avoid these sorts of discussions.

    Brett

   

[turkey]

yes, just ignore all of that and keep listening to that cheap, irritating CD sound, feeling reassured that even Frank admits his own DAC cannot match a turntable.  I won't put down Frank's DAC--I have not heard one--but he himself has spoken.  Keep wondering, Rcag,

That's not what he said. Go back and read it again.

your confusion.  So what is left for you, Rcag?  Uh oh, it's the CDs!. Sure, that's it--- 95% of them are just plain lousy!. Yes, they purposely made them that way just

I have lots of well-recorded CDs that sound just fine.

[rcag_ils]

If memory serves me well, in the past, Frank said something like his DAC is better than spending thousands of dollars on a analog set up. That means, if we are willing to spend that much money on a analog set up, the result could still go either way.

I just restored a pair of speakers (Design Acoustics PS-10A, with plasti clay treatment) a few days ago, based on the analog, and digital material that I HAVE, I repeat, I HAVE, the analog still sound better that digital.

[turkey]

If memory serves me well, in the past, Frank said something like his DAC is better than spending thousands of dollars on a analog set up. That means, if we are willing to spend that much money on a analog set up, the result could still go either way.

I don't remember him saying that at all. ???