[shep]

I remember reading this and it makes sense. The 500 hours is a ballpark figure. Turning on and off in cycles let's the caps form and reform, going from an off to on state. Thanks for the reminder! Happy listening.

[Afterimage]

I have about 205 hours so far.  I will not give any more impressions or comparisons until we get over 500 hours.

[Afterimage]

I'm at 470 hours now.  I have only gone back and forth between a few tracks that I know very well.  So, I have not spent a lot of time really breaking down the comparison between these preamps. Still, my initial impression are about the same as they are now.  The ARC REF 5 has yet to distance itself from the Isabella linestage.   The ARC does have a wider soundstage, but going back and forth between the two, I don't think that is a preference for me.  The Isabella seems more focused and coherent making it easier for me to enjoy what is going on with the music.  Also, the ARC  is not better at vocals than the Isabella.  In the Isabella, vocals are more up front in the presentation, which I like.  I will have more later when I get some time. 

[adamaley]

Keep it coming.

[Afterimage]

okay, another difference I notice is the bass on the REF 5 is seriously lacking.  The ARC does not have the same pace, kind of plods along.  The Isabella is tighter, faster, more focused and coherent.  More bottom end wt.   The Red Wine vocal presence and articulation is a step above the ARC.  This is at 493 hours. I play a track on the ARC and then follow it up with the Red Wine.  Then vice vesa just to verify what I am hearing.   I don't get it, shouldn't this thing be burned in enough that these issues should start to subside?  Tone Pub, help me out here, you have heard both linestages.  What do you think is going on?  I wonder if the Isabella just synergizes better with my Simauido W-7?  I am perplexed.  For the ARC, I was using the Isballina DAC from the Isabellina HPA.  The Isabella preamp had the built in Isaballina DAC so the sources are the same.   I will let it run in on and off cycles for another 100 hours, then do the comparison again. 

[Alwayswantmore]

Have you read this yet?     http://www.tonepublications.com/gear/the-red-wine-audio-black-lightning-dc-power-supply/

Here's a $9,000 Nagra VPS/VFS phono stage essentially compared with and without SLA battery operation (via RWA Black Lightning).

Many of us like what tubes can do for tone. But add in the transformers and large caps it takes to drive tubes, and bass will (probably) never be as fast as Isabella's tubes driven by SLA Batteries.

Now try the Isabella with some of the NOS tubes known to bring Isabella to the next level. As good as it is now, everything you like can still sound even better, and there is an even larger soundstage waiting to be unlocked by the right tubes.

[TONEPUB]

I have to say I really enjoy my Nagra more than ever with the Black Lightning.

[Afterimage]

Have you read this yet?     http://www.tonepublications.com/gear/the-red-wine-audio-black-lightning-dc-power-supply/

Here's a $9,000 Nagra VPS/VFS phono stage essentially compared with and without SLA battery operation (via RWA Black Lightning).

Many of us like what tubes can do for tone. But add in the transformers and large caps it takes to drive tubes, and bass will (probably) never be as fast as Isabella's tubes driven by SLA Batteries.

Now try the Isabella with some of the NOS tubes known to bring Isabella to the next level. As good as it is now, everything you like can still sound even better, and there is an even larger soundstage waiting to be unlocked by the right tubes.

I wasn't really commenting on how fast the bass was on the ARC compared to the Isabella.  I was trying to say the bottom end presence and weight is substantially more on the Isabella. The bass is softer and recessed on the ARC.   I reread my post and I can see I wasn't clear on that.  The Red Wine in general is just faster or has better pace.   For tubes I am using the Amperex 7308s.  Do you have another NOS suggestion?   Also, I had not read that on the Black Lighting.  To tell you the truth, I did not really know anything about it other than it was available.  So, do you think putting that in Front of the ARC would help it out?  Why should a 12,000 preamp need help to compete with a 4 thousand dollar line stage?  Yeah, I'm kind of being a smart@$$, but it does seem a little off if you think about it.

[Alwayswantmore]

I wasn't really commenting on how fast the bass was on the ARC compared to the Isabella.  I was trying to say the bottom end presence and weight is substantially more on the Isabella. The bass is softer and recessed on the ARC.

Sorry this is a long answer, but...

When I say SLA is fast, I'm being lazy in not fully describing what SLA does for bass. The point is SLA moves a lot of clean current very quickly (low resistance). So it's a combination of speed and the amount of clean current.

Components running on AC need a reservoir of current (caps / transformers). But caps / transformers are not as fast or clean as SLA. Nor do they have the large ready and low resistance reserve of DC waiting to drive the audio circuit.

[Bear in mind I am not an engineer and others may be able to better explain what I'm stating, but IMO any product that is suitable to be run from SLA will likely sound markedly better than it does stock (or even with the addition of power conditioners and add-on power cords).]

On the flip side of the coin, battery operation does not in itself mean a given product will outdo all products run via AC. Think of SLA as the car engine. Fast, quiet, great torque. But the car still needs a suspension system, transmission, etc. That's where audio circuit design comes into play. So about 1/2 the sound can be attributed to the quality of the power supply (engine). The other half goes to the rest of the audio circuit. Any product running on AC is at an automatic disadvantage to RWA when it comes to the power supply (or engine if we follow the car analogy).

Amperex 7308s.  Do you have another NOS suggestion?

Nice choice. I had assumed you were using stock JJs. In my system the NOS 7308s (I think mine are '60s vintage) make a big difference. Vinnie and a few others ACers have tried multiple tubes. Vinnie may be in the best position to give you a feel for the differences you can expect from Amprex pinched waist or Seimen CCAs, etc. Send him an e-mail.

Also, I had not read that on the Black Lighting.  To tell you the truth, I did not really know anything about it other than it was available.  So, do you think putting that in Front of the ARC would help it out?  Why should a 12,000 preamp need help to compete with a 4 thousand dollar line stage?  Yeah, I'm kind of being a smart@$$, but it does seem a little off if you think about it.

I sold ARC in the early days, for a number of years. I've owned a few of their pieces, dating back to the D-76 and SP32a1 days. They make very fine gear. So do a number of other manufactures. Where Vinnie has an edge (IMO) is he creates his designs specifically to take advantage of SLA. There's a good chance the ARC requires a higher voltage than is practical with SLA. If this is the case, ARC did not build the product with SLA in mind, rather they followed the path they've been on for years which is to build the best circuit possible using a conventional power supply.

So the net (IMO) is not to say RWA can beat every product on the market. But if you factor in price, RWA is (IMO) tough to beat at a given price point. Like I said in my earliest post, I’ve heard systems costing anywhere between 2 x 10 times what I now own, and in many aspects my system (IMO) is able to outperform the more expensive comers. In almost all cases, the gear I got rid of when it was replaced originally cost at least twice what the replacement did. Yet my system sounds far better than anything I’ve owned in the past.

This is the first system I’ve owned where I can consistently get an OMG out of virtually everyone who hears it. It’s also the first system I’ve owned that I feel sounds as good in my room as the what reviewers in the big magazines made me “think” the gear sounded like in their room. Before this I always felt something was missing. 

Black Lighting is new, and the current models are any easy fit for any product that uses an external AC adaptor. Some other products (with internal AC power supplies) can be modded by RWA to take advantage of Black Lightning, but they need to fit within the voltage and current parameters supported by the current Black Lightning models. If you dig up voltage and current requirement specs for the ARC, Vinnie can look at them and let you know if SLA is a possibility.

Good luck and good listening!

[Afterimage]

Alwayswantmore, thank you very much for the very informative post.   

[Alwayswantmore]

Alwayswantmore, thank you very much for the very informative post.   

You are welcome. And frankly your comparison of the two units is fascinating. My audio budget is limited, so there are many products I’d love to try, but it’s just not in the cards. So as an Isabella owner (fully loaded, headphone out and all), it’s great to see others reinforcing my feelings about the unit.

Given the strength of the product, and the fact it can serve multiple functions (musical sounding DAC, vacuum-tube linestage and pretty much top-O-line headphone amp), this is a component I assume will be with me for many years.

Despite great reviews from TONEAudio and 6Moons, I don’t feel Isabella has received the market recognition it deserves. But maybe that’s what boutique audio is all about.

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delayed response to this thread...

Hi Afterimage,

Thank you for keeping us posted with your comparison.  Sounds like the Isabella has better synergy with your system and your tastes.  The ARC costs 3x the price and I'm sure there will be some who like it better than the Isabella in their systems, but the really good news for you (and hopefully many others) is that you found a preamp (Isabella) that costs 3x less, and you enjoy it even more!   

Hi Alwayswantmore,

Thanks for your informative posts - I agree with your statement regarding that SLA power offers a big advantage (as long as the product is designed with SLA power in mind), but as you mention, it does NOT necessarily mean than an SLA battery powered product is better than AC powered component.  Power supply is a big factor (at least 50% of what you hear in a component), but there are certainly many other variables in a design that contribute to its sonic presentation and there are a lot of really good sounding AC powered components on the market, too!

I also agree with your post regarding the Black Lightning - a lot of components were not designed with battery power in mind (which generally runs on lower voltage and higher current), so having Black Lightning feed them is not always going to be possible, especially with tube designs that run on high voltage (most do!) or high power amplifiers that use high voltage power rails.  For example, getting +/- 80Vdc rails to feed a large power amp from battery is not an easy task - especially the recharging aspect.  High power consumption in some products also requires the use of larger batteries (more capacity) for longer play time...

But for components that accept DC input voltages (fed from external power supplies, like the Nagra gear reviewed by TONEAudio, and many dacs, phonostages, sources like the Squeezebox, lower power amps like T-amps, etc.) - Black Lightning makes for a BIG improvement (cleaner power, higher output current), and we back this claim with a 30-day refund policy.

Thanks, guys!

Wishing you all a safe, happy and health holiday season and all the best in 2010! 

- Vinnie

PS: 2010 is going to be an exciting year and we are really looking forward to it!  aa