[Afterimage]

I have a local dealer helping me out with some room treatments.  He was intrigued by the Isabella and wanted me to bring it in.  He carries Classe, Pass Labs, Cary, and Audio Research.   I don't have really much experience with stand alone preamps other than a PS Audio PCA2.  I have pretty much just had recievers and some  good integrated amps over the years.  My question is, can the Isabella compete with the top of the line preamps from the brands listed above?  I realize there is a lot of variables involved like system matching, personal listening preferences ect... but generally is the Isabella on par?

[cfcjb]

Take it in and find out!

[wilsynet]

I think it's important to replace the stock tubes with a nice NOS pair.  There is a good tube rolling thread here.

[Alwayswantmore]

Assuming the dealer is open minded enough to really listen to the tone, black background, quality bass response, dynamics and holographic image the Isabella is capable of delivering, my guess is they will be a little surprised at what this black beauty can do. Even with stock tubes it will do well. And yes, with the right NOS tubes it could be even better (true of most tube gear, right?).

Do you have the internal DAC? If so you'll want to put it up against the big names too.

As a point of reference I sold Audio Research years ago. I've owned a couple of their preamps and one of their amps. Now I'm Isabella fully loaded, Amprex NOS, Signature 30.2 straight amp, and Omega Super 6 monitors + Deep Hemp. I also have a bunch of GIK sound / bass panels in my small dedicated listening room. Sourced by Apple Macbook via USB.

IMO, for the dollar RWA is extremely hard to beat for the true music lover. But tastes can vary, so bring it in and let your (and their ears) be the judge. Please report back if you do it.

Kent

[Afterimage]

I have the Amperex 7308 tubes in my Isabella, and yes I have the DAC in my unit.   However, I'm sure we will spend a decent amount of time using the Isabella without the DAC.   I guess we could use the DAC as a source, but wouldn't the signal be running through the preamp section of the Isabella and hence it would be passing through two preamps?   I think if we are trying to compare line stages I would have to use another source wouldn't I?  Anyway, I am going over there on Friday night after the shop closes.  Can't wait.

[wilsynet]

The power of suggestion is very strong.  If someone says, "Oh, the treble performance is so much better, can't you hear that?" you're going to be influenced and start hearing things.  If he's being fair, he should let both of you listen for awhile and draw independent conclusions later.

[Afterimage]

yeah, thanks for the tip and you are so right.   

[Alwayswantmore]

I have the Amperex 7308 tubes in my Isabella, and yes I have the DAC in my unit.   However, I'm sure we will spend a decent amount of time using the Isabella without the DAC.   I guess we could use the DAC as a source, but wouldn't the signal be running through the preamp section of the Isabella and hence it would be passing through two preamps?   I think if we are trying to compare line stages I would have to use another source wouldn't I?  Anyway, I am going over there on Friday night after the shop closes.  Can't wait.

Yes, if you want to isolate the comparison to just preamps, then do not use the internal DAC. But the DAC is so nice, it might be interesting to see how they like Isabella as a pre/DAC combo.

I recommend you bring source material that you already know.

Kent

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Afterimage and all,

My question is, can the Isabella compete with the top of the line preamps from the brands listed above?  I realize there is a lot of variables involved like system matching, personal listening preferences ect... but generally is the Isabella on par?

Yes - absolutely!

From the 6moons review:

?For guts, fleshiness and wallop ? in short, the illusion that the ghostly phantom images in your sound room have bodies and arteries with flowing blood ? the Isabella delivers more than class leaders at twice her price.?

From the Tone Audio review:

?The tonality of the Isabella is excellent. I firmly believe this is due to the lack of grain from power supply artifacts coloring the signal.?

?The Isabella [combined with the Signature 30.2 power amp] will be tough to beat without spending a lot more money.?

From the StereoTimes Review:

??few preamps in my experience combine quietude, transparency to source, PRaT and tonal veracity with fuss-free operation and friendly, non-Machiavellian designers in quite the way Isabella does.?

2008 Product of the Year in High Fidelity Online: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64150.0

Feedback from a couple of dealers who carry some of the competition:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59183.0

And of course you can search deep in the RWA forum for lots of Isabella feedback from our customers. 

The power of suggestion is very strong.  If someone says, "Oh, the treble performance is so much better, can't you hear that?" you're going to be influenced and start hearing things.  If he's being fair, he should let both of you listen for awhile and draw independent conclusions later.
 

wilsynet is correct!  Before even starting RWA, I used to visit dealers and some of them invited me to bring my current equipment (I have no intentions of disclosing who these dealer are, or what equipment was involved - I'm just trying to make a point).  Quite a few of them would always suggest how much better the sound was when they swapped in the equipment that they were selling.

Comments like:

"Listen to how much stronger the bass is with our Brand X component" (but to me, I was thinking, "yeah, but the bass is much more bloated and unrealistic").

"Listen to the more detail coming from our Brand Y component" (but to me, I was thinking, "yeah, but it sound too bright and I couldn't listen to that for long periods of time and be satisfied...")

Note - not all dealers are like this, but there certainly are dealers who are going to be biased towards the gear they sell (and we all have biases, as I certainly do as a manufacturer of equipment  ).

Also - once you bring your equipment into a dealer, the entire system synergy is radically altered.  You are in a different room, mating with different equipment and speakers.  So it is possible that in the dealers system, you *might* actually prefer their piece of equipment in their system - which they hopefully voiced to sound good together!  If they let you bring it home into YOUR system, you can surely expect to hear things differently.

The best demo is one in your listening room, with your equipment, with your music.  This is why I really like the 30-day refund policy approach.  Customers can listen to Red Wine Audio equipment in their own settings and decide how it performs for them and their equipment.  System synergy is EVERYTHING (I hope I do not sound like a broken record, but this is so important). 

And if you have a dealer who offer a return policy (or allows you to take home a demo unit), that is most helpful.  The room is at least 50% of what you are hearing, so you need to listen in your own room with your own gear, and you need to feel comfortable when listening - that's what it is all about!

Hope this helps,

Vinnie

[Afterimage]

Hey guys.  I never made it over there last week.  It sounds like I may have a good chance to get one of the "heavy wts" in my own home for an audition though. 

[Afterimage]

It sounds like I will have at least a couple of preamps in the house.  They are very high on the Audio Research Ref 5 preamp and I will have one of those for sure, they should get one in next week.  This is a twelve thousand dollar preamp so it will be interesting to see how the Isabella linestage holds up.  Also, I am going to use my Macbook/Isabellina/HPA as the source.  However, I think I screwed up and ordered my Isabellina with variable outputs instead of fixed.  I guess this means both the preamp and the DAC would control the volume?  Is this bad in any way?

[TONEPUB]

Personally, I like my Isabella with DAC and headphone amp...
It's become my desktop/headphone system now.  Just jacked into
my MacBook Pro and phones!  I love it.

The DAC is very musical. 

[Afterimage]

Okay, I have the highly regarded and very expensive Audio Research Ref 5 preamp in house.  I have about 73 hours on it.  The manual says break in is 600 hours.  That seems a bit much but I did a quick comparison with the Isabella line stage anyway.  Some differences so far.  The ARC REF 5 has a wider soundstage, although I'm not sure I like it like that.  The Isabella presentation is more condensed which to me is plus as it has more coherency and focus.  The instruments seem kind smeared on the ARC.  And... the big thing so far is the vocals.  The Isabella just has more wt, boldness and dominate presence whereas compared to the ARC, the REF 5 seems recessed and more in balance.  Some might prefer that, but I prefer the vocals more up front in the presention.  Keep in mind my comments are relative.  I am in no way saying the ARC Ref 5 is not an outstanding preamp, it is.  It is just at this stage, I prefer the Isabella.   I am shocked at what I heard so far and I appreciate the Isabella more now that I have compared it to a 12 thousand dollar preamp.  However, from what I understand the ARC may change a lot through break in is so it may be way to early and not fair to make any conclusions.   One thing is clear though, the Isabella is a gem.  I'm mean to compete with a linestage at 3 times it's price, even though not broken in, says a lot.

[Alwayswantmore]

Okay, I have the highly regarded and very expensive Audio Research Ref 5 preamp in house.  I have about 73 hours on it.  The manual says break in is 600 hours.  That seems a bit much but I did a quick comparison with the Isabella line stage anyway.  Some differences so far.  The ARC REF 5 has a wider soundstage, although I'm not sure I like it like that.  The Isabella presentation is more condensed which to me is plus as it has more coherency and focus.  The instruments seem kind smeared on the ARC.  And... the big thing so far is the vocals.  The Isabella just has more wt, boldness and dominate presence whereas compared to the ARC, the REF 5 seems recessed and more in balance.  Some might prefer that, but I prefer the vocals more up front in the presention.  Keep in mind my comments are relative.  I am in no way saying the ARC Ref 5 is not an outstanding preamp, it is.  It is just at this stage, I prefer the Isabella.   I am shocked at what I heard so far and I appreciate the Isabella more now that I have compared it to a 12 thousand dollar preamp.  However, from what I understand the ARC may change a lot through break in is so it may be way to early and not fair to make any conclusions.   One thing is clear though, the Isabella is a gem.  I'm mean to compete with a linestage at 3 times it's price, even though not broken in, says a lot.

I'm not totally surprised. Just think, you could take $100 - $200+ of the money you save on the Isabella and put it into NOS tubes (something I did). My $125 investment in tubes made my Isabella everything you described only ever more than the stock JJs in my system. So that leaves you with a savings approaching $9K. Plus, no expensive power cords or line conditioners need apply. So more saving there.

I tell my friends that RWA is my 10X solution. Ok, in this case maybe it's the 3X solution.

[TONEPUB]

Okay, I have the highly regarded and very expensive Audio Research Ref 5 preamp in house.  I have about 73 hours on it.  The manual says break in is 600 hours.  That seems a bit much but I did a quick comparison with the Isabella line stage anyway.  Some differences so far.  The ARC REF 5 has a wider soundstage, although I'm not sure I like it like that.  The Isabella presentation is more condensed which to me is plus as it has more coherency and focus.  The instruments seem kind smeared on the ARC.  And... the big thing so far is the vocals.  The Isabella just has more wt, boldness and dominate presence whereas compared to the ARC, the REF 5 seems recessed and more in balance.  Some might prefer that, but I prefer the vocals more up front in the presention.  Keep in mind my comments are relative.  I am in no way saying the ARC Ref 5 is not an outstanding preamp, it is.  It is just at this stage, I prefer the Isabella.   I am shocked at what I heard so far and I appreciate the Isabella more now that I have compared it to a 12 thousand dollar preamp.  However, from what I understand the ARC may change a lot through break in is so it may be way to early and not fair to make any conclusions.   One thing is clear though, the Isabella is a gem.  I'm mean to compete with a linestage at 3 times it's price, even though not broken in, says a lot.

No disrespect to Vinnie (as I'm an Isabella owner too) but the REF does need about 350 hours to make a big jump in its character.  It's full of big, teflon caps.  My CJ ACT 2/series 2 was the same way.  It sounds thin, flat and undynamic for the first 300-350 hours and you're thinking "I wrote a five figure check for this?". 

I guarantee that your REF will just OPEN UP at about 350 hours and improve gradually to about 500-600 hours.  If you really want to get a handle on it, play the same cut of something you really know about every 50 hours.

I know your opinion of the REF will be very different.  Again, no disrespect to Vinnie, I've got an Isabella in my third system and love it.

Also agreed with Afterimage on a set of NOS tubes.  That will take your Isabella a bit further.

Once your REF is broken in, think about a set of NOS 6H30's.  You'll be surprised at that too...  They are about $250 a pop, but worth it!

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Afterimage,

I am shocked at what I heard so far and I appreciate the Isabella more now that I have compared it to a 12 thousand dollar preamp.

Without the dac or headphone stage options, the Isabella battery tube preamp is $4k.  I think everyone would agree that it easily holds its own in its price range and beyond. 

Thanks for your feeedback, but as Jeff suggests, do let the REF burn-in and see what happens (along with the tube rolling).

Keep us posted, and thanks again!

Happy listening (and comparing!  ),

Vinnie

[jtwrace]

do let the REF burn-in and see what happens (along with the tube rolling).
Vinnie

IMO I also think that it's your ears that are "burning in" (to the equipment) rather then the caps and internal parts.  They need to adjust to what they now hear. 

[Vinnie R.]

do let the REF burn-in and see what happens (along with the tube rolling).
Vinnie

IMO I also think that it's your ears that are "burning in" (to the equipment) rather then the caps and internal parts.  They need to adjust to what they now hear.

jtwrace bring up a good point as well!  Putting aside component burn-in, different components sound, well, DIFFERENT - so you need to familiarize yourself with the differences in sound and get used to hearing a different sonic presentation of your music. 

After a while, you should have a good idea what you prefer (what works best with your equipment, your speakers, your room, and your tastes in sound). 

Good thread!  Thanks for all your posts,

Vinnie

[TONEPUB]

do let the REF burn-in and see what happens (along with the tube rolling).
Vinnie

IMO I also think that it's your ears that are "burning in" (to the equipment) rather then the caps and internal parts.  They need to adjust to what they now hear.

Nope, teflon caps take 500 hours to sound right.  If you ever have the luxury to take two components side by side and let one play for 500 hours and then compare it to the new one with no hours you will hear a huge diff.  It's not your ears breaking in....

[jtwrace]

do let the REF burn-in and see what happens (along with the tube rolling).
Vinnie

IMO I also think that it's your ears that are "burning in" (to the equipment) rather then the caps and internal parts.  They need to adjust to what they now hear.

Nope, teflon caps take 500 hours to sound right.  If you ever have the luxury to take two components side by side and let one play for 500 hours and then compare it to the new one with no hours you will hear a huge diff.  It's not your ears breaking in....

Not going to deabate this...I will say that if you speak with some of the most respected names in the business, they will also tell you to NOT leave the unit on.  It will actually take longer to "settle" the electronics.  The best is just use as you normally would and shut off.  Typically on for 5 hrs then off for 5.  Cycling the power / heat cycles is what you're after.