Which is preferable: 20 feet of speaker cable or 20 feet of SE IC's?

Big Red Machine · « **on:** 22 Oct 2009, 01:54 pm »

Probably a good space for this question. If I had monoblocks, should I place them beside the speakers with 2 foot SC's or should I use 3 foot IC's and 20 foot SC's with the amps on the rack?

Yes, I know questions come up about power conditioning and balanced, or shielded cabling, etc.

Single ended pre and single ended amps. I'm not concerned about power conditoning so it is possible to run both through the main conditioner or split them to separate outlets, one being off the dedicated circuit.

machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:01 pm »

For tube amps I have been told to keep the speaker wires short and use longer IC's if needed.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:04 pm »

Tube amps in play here. Good catch.

Speedskater · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:13 pm »

The needed facts are:
a) Can the pre-amp output drive long interconnects?
b) Can the amplifier drive long speaker cables?
c) Will the amplifier be plugged in to a AC power outlet on a different circuit? Will this cause ground-loop hum?

Sonny · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:16 pm »

I would always try to keep interconnects short...but anything under 20ft, both in speaker cables and IC should be fine if the cables are built well. They should not pick up hum or the like. Oh and of course, sometimes you've got to figure out which is cheaper, right? usually speaker cables.
T

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:18 pm »

longer ic's/shorter speaker cables, regardless of whether s/s or tubes, imo. there may be exceptions, but as a general rule, i would stick w/this, especially in cases where a run has to be as long as 20'.

now, (as an example of an exception), if your amp/pre impedance ratio doesn't meet, or comes wery close to the 10:1 ratio, (ie: input impedance of amp should be >10 times output impedance of preamp), running long ic's can roll off the frequency extremes...

doug s.

BobM · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 02:32 pm »

I read an article, somewhere, a long time ago that measured losses in both IC's and speaker cables over distances. I believe it concluded that you really don't have to worry for anything under 30 feet. Now that's science and measurements, but not what people actually hear (and we all know there can be a difference looking at things that way).

I would definitely use shielded IC's if you're going to make them longer - that kind of goes without saying. But I would caution you that the signal going theough an IC is lower than one going through a speaker cable. Any aberration to that signal, whether from RFI or EMI or whatever, is going to affect the signal more than the stronger one going through the speaker cable.

In my mind that means use longer speaker cables and shorter IC's, but you still may experience a bit of rolloff and air on the top end that way. Best to keep things within 10 feet either way.

All this aside, the choice usually comes down to the cheaper solution, then living with it

Enjoy,
Bob

JackD201 · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 03:33 pm »

Pick any recording you have in any of your collections and chances are the mic feeds or DI box outputs were run far longer than 20 feet before getting to the console and then onto the recorder. Yup especially the golden age recordings. I don't know who started the whole "keep cables short" thing but to me it's suspect. AES papers support the fact that low level signals even on single ended runs will be more than fine way over 20ft.

To me, whatever losses one might have from a long run of ICs to amps more than make up for the reflections a huge rack between loudspeakers bring. If one has the luxury of space, I'd suggest that there be nothing but floor level components in between.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 03:52 pm »

Yeah, I have to have the rack on the side since the door to the room is between the speakers.

I have a double run of some low level Kimber speaker cables but also all the components except the teflon tubing to make a sweet pair of IC's with drain wire.

macrojack · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 03:59 pm »

AFIK long, single ended cables were replaced by balanced cables because of noise AND signal loss in professional settings. And perhaps the answer to this question can be found in the concept of powered speakers where speaker cables are reduced to nothing in favor of longer (usually balanced) interconnects.

JackD201 · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 04:00 pm »

Go for it Big Red. Just make sure nobody trips on your amps as they make their way in

I'm also all for shorter trips to the turntable or CD player. I don't have a remote on my pre so being closer to it is also more convenient.

vinylphilemag · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 04:13 pm »

Add my vote to the longer IC, shorter speaker cable camp.

JackD201 · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 22 Oct 2009, 03:59 pm

AFIK long, single ended cables were replaced by balanced cables because of noise AND signal loss in professional settings.

From what I remember it was just noise and not signal losses. To make transmission over longer distances more robust in pro audio land signals are spec'd 12dB hotter than consumer specifications. That's +4DBu for pro vs -10dBV for consumer.

Besides unless the sending device and the receiving device both use true balanced circuitry, all one really gets is in effect a single ended cable albeit terminated with XLRs or BNCs.

doug s. · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 22 Oct 2009, 03:59 pm

AFIK long, single ended cables were replaced by balanced cables because of noise AND signal loss in professional settings. And perhaps the answer to this question can be found in the concept of powered speakers where speaker cables are reduced to nothing in favor of longer (usually balanced) interconnects.

yes - but regarding ic's, you are talking runs that can easily exceed 50', 100', or even more... i would be more concerned about the speaker being able to handle the signal from the amp, then the amp being able to deal w/the signal from the preamp or source... as you say - a powered speaker makes the speaker cable quite short!

doug s.

JimJ · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 05:38 pm »

I've run 25 foot speaker cables with my tube amps for several years now, and have a 20 foot IC from the music server to the rack

No problems.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 05:41 pm »

I think the amps on the rack is the least trouble all around. I am sure I will try that first but once I score some teflon to insulate my gold plated copper wire, probably from Cryoparts, I'll whip up those IC's and then see what I get. And then I'll probably have to come up with some nifty amp stands....

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 05:56 pm »

I've run 23 ft speaker cables for years. I have never had mono blocks so the racks with my gear have always been on the side. Hence short IC's and longer speaker cables.

Laura

wilsynet · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 07:25 pm »

Apparently, no consensus on this one.

Longer speaker cables make sense to me. ICs are usually shielded, while speaker cables are not.

Intuitively, this makes sense to me. Lower level signals (source to preamp, preamp to amplifier) are more sensitive to distortion and interference, while higher level signals (amplifier to speaker) are less sensitive to distortion and interference.

It has also been suggested to me that phono cables should be very short in length as the low voltage signal is even more sensitive. This would be consistent with the earlier thought.

I would go with longer runs of speaker cables.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 07:28 pm »

Sounds like I should have started a poll.

BobM · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Oct 2009, 07:55 pm »

You still wouldn't reach a conclusion with a poll. Bottom line, long anything can result in noise and a rolling off of the frequency extremes. But you're better off not fretting about that, picking one over the other based on the cables you can acquire, and getting appropriate room treatments. That will make a far bigger improvement than dwelling on the difference between long IC's vs long speaker cables.