[ted_b]

Barry et al,
The Metric Halo ULN-8 has been touted as not only a great sounding 2 channel 24/192 DAC but also could be used as a multichannel DAC for 24/192 each channel!!  Wow!  Could Barry or someone help guide us as to how this would be set up in a home mch setup.  I, for one, have big $$ invested in a dedicated multichannel setup and would love to have the sonics that this could produce. 

How would multichannel files be assigned to each channel?  What would be the source?  Thx
Ted

[srb]

Are you talking about a decoder box that could decode Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby True HD, etc. and split that into 5 or 7 individual (S/PDIF?) digital outputs?
 
I don't know if such a piece of hardware exists.
 
Steve

[ted_b]

No, just wondering how an already decoded and/or multichannel music signal would be processed by a multichannel DAC like the ULN-8.  2L, for example, sells downloadable FLAC 24/96 5.1 multichannel files, but not sure how they are handled.  Are they 3 files (l/r, c/sub and ls/rs) or what?  And what transport or player send them in synch?

[bdiament]

Hi Ted,

Barry et al,
The Metric Halo ULN-8 has been touted as not only a great sounding 2 channel 24/192 DAC but also could be used as a multichannel DAC for 24/192 each channel!!  Wow!  Could Barry or someone help guide us as to how this would be set up in a home mch setup.  I, for one, have big $$ invested in a dedicated multichannel setup and would love to have the sonics that this could produce. 

How would multichannel files be assigned to each channel?  What would be the source?  Thx
Ted

Steve raised a good question regarding decoding of some of the popular multichannel formats.  The Metric Halo doesn't do that but if you have a means of getting discrete channels into the ULN-8, it will do a superb job as a D-A.

At least for set up, if not beyond, you would make use of the MIO Console software (Mac only though) that is part of the ULN-8.  Once in the console, there are options for routing the outputs, either mono or stereo with pan pots or multichannel, with multichannel pan pots.

The difficulty will be in getting 24/192 from your multichannel sources.  At least with Blu-ray, it appears high res PCM is limited to the HDMI output - likely a function of the HDMI license.  I looked into this a while back in considering the release of Blu-Ray audio-only stereo 24/192 releases from Soundkeeper (since I record at 24/192 with the ULN-8).   It turns out such output is limited to devices with HDMI inputs, like AV receivers or limited to the players' own DAC.  No way (at least that I see yet) to get a signal, stereo, multichannel or otherwise, into the ULN-8 or any other external DAC.

So the assignment to each channel is quite easy with the ULN-8.  It is the source that is the issue.  Of course, if someone were to release multichannel computer files, it could be done.

All this said, my concentration is in stereo, as that is how I record (direct to a stereo array of a matched pair of microphones, with no mix or overdubs).  It is possible another ULN-8 user is on to something I'm not yet aware of.
The question could be posed on the Metric Halo user group
http://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/mobileio
(registration required)
or to the Metric Halo forum at OSX Audio
http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=34&sid=ddef3b3dada25cae2fa40188b897e6e8

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

P.S. Since the unit is a beautiful one (at least to my eyes), here is that photo again for folks who aren't familiar with the ULN-8.

[bdiament]

Hi Ted,

No, just wondering how an already decoded and/or multichannel music signal would be processed by a multichannel DAC like the ULN-8.  2L, for example, sells downloadable FLAC 24/96 5.1 multichannel files, but not sure how they are handled.  Are they 3 files (l/r, c/sub and ls/rs) or what?  And what transport or player send them in synch?

I don't know the format in which they deliver their files - a single FLAC file or a group of them. 
What would be needed is host software to play the files, same as with stereo.

The host software is then routed to the ULN-8, in the same way I'd connect iTunes or soundBlade or any other audio app on the computer.  For example, when playing multiple channels via soundBlade, in that program, I'd route the channels to DAW1, DAW2, etc. though DAW8 (if I want 8 channels).

In the MIO Console that is the software part of the ULN-8, I'd route each DAW input to its own channel strip on the mixer.  From there, they could be sent to a multichannel output bus.  (This may sound complicated for those who've never done this but it is really quite easy.)

Attached is a screenshot of one possible Console setup.  Here, I have the first two channel strips set up for my mics (for recording in stereo).  The second pair takes inputs from Digital 1 and 2, which are my AES input feeds from my CD/DVD transport.  The next four pairs are from 8 channels of soundBlade, each pair being sent to a separate output bus. 

This last is very useful for comparing different versions of files.  Each stereo file can occupy its own pair of tracks.  I can synchronize playback and switch between pairs of tracks instantly.  If one file is louder, I can use the faders to compensate and match levels using the 80-bit precision of the MIO Console.


For those who like to experiment with different sonic colors (e.g. tubes, FETS, transformers, etc.), note the Character menu on each strip.  Mine tend to live at "None" but they are fun to play with.



Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[ted_b]

So, ripping a mch track via DVDAExplorer, or downloading a 2L 24/96 5.1 FALC file would work (as long as you knew what channels went to what subgroup).  In DVDAexplorer it's typically 2 subgroups, one which is lf-rf-ls-rf and one has c-lfe.  On the 2L site they say this: "The track order of all 5.1 surround files follows the standard as defined by SMPT/EBU and implemented by SourceForge in FLAC (v. 1.2.1b): L ? R ? C ? Lfe ? Ls - Rs"

[bdiament]

Hi Ted,

So, ripping a mch track via DVDAExplorer, or downloading a 2L 24/96 5.1 FALC file would work (as long as you knew what channels went to what subgroup).  In DVDAexplorer it's typically 2 subgroups, one which is lf-rf-ls-rf and one has c-lfe.  On the 2L site they say this: "The track order of all 5.1 surround files follows the standard as defined by SMPT/EBU and implemented by SourceForge in FLAC (v. 1.2.1b): L ? R ? C ? Lfe ? Ls - Rs"

Never having seen one of these files, with channels broken into subgroups, I'm not sure.  I would think if you have software that can play them back, with the subgroups properly in sync with each other, there should be no problem routing the channels appropriately in the ULN-8.

What sort of software will play such files?

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[JoshK]

I'm curious if you know anything about the ULN-2.  Is it just a  channel version of the ULN-8?  It looked like it had more conventional connectors, too.

[ted_b]

The ULN-2 is not a 2 channel version; it is a generation earlier and uses only a 24/96 DAC chipset, not 24/192.  A different beast all together, although also receives good reviews.  It's under $2k at many places (B&H Photo have a version for $1695).  The newer, larger and more highly resolving ULN-8 is $6k.

[srb]

ted_b,
 
Looking at your current system, it looks like on the digital side you might be using the Modwright Denon 3910 DAC to convert your digital multi-channel discs (in preference to the Denon 3808 DAC?), and the Modwright Transporter DAC to convert your 2 channel digital files.
 
You seem to have a good understanding and experience with digital file formats.  If you could determine that the MH ULN-8 could perform the multi-channel conversion, would you consider this lofty acquisition, and would you use it as the DAC for all digital sources?
 
Steve

[ted_b]

Steve,
Actually my system profile is a bit old.  For 2 channel I use both the Modwright tube modded Transporter (via SqeezeCenter) in one system, and I've added a Macbook (internal SSD drive, external USB drive) to firewire Weiss DAC2.  For multichannel music, yes I currently use a Modwright modded Denon 3910 (although the tube mods are for 2 channel, SACD mostly; the stereo DVD-A stuff is now taken care of by ripping to HD and using the Mac/Weiss combo up to 24/192) via DenonLink (cat6) to my Denon 3808.  That combo supports DSD or PCM multichannel music.  No video/movies with that setup...that's done by a BluRay player (which may be replaced by a Modwright modded Oppo BD-83 which could then do ALL mch functions).  Anyway........that's today.

Yes, the flexibility and functionality of a ULN-8 holds promise for both 2 channel and multichannel music, but can't figure out how I'd use it for movies (and still, of course, figuring out how to use it for mch music) as the signal path for codecs like Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA is restricted to HDMI digitally. 

[Double Ugly]

If you could determine that the MH ULN-8 could perform the multi-channel conversion, would you consider this lofty acquisition, and would you use it as the DAC for all digital sources?
 

Can't speak for Ted, but I would.  'Course, that's assuming I like it as much as you and most everyone else who's heard it.

Personally, assuming it really is 'all that', I can't see how one can go wrong with a preamp/surround processor with virtually nothing in the way of compromise.


Ah... Ted speaks -

Yes, the flexibility and functionality of a ULN-8 holds promise for both 2 channel and multichannel music, but can't figure out how I'd use it for movies as the signal path for Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA is restricted to HDMI digitally. 

Same here.  If the movie/MC aspect can be done - and by "done" I mean legitimately, not jury-rigged - I'm in. 

[srb]

Actually my system profile is a bit old.  For 2 channel I use both the Modwright tube modded Transporter (via SqeezeCenter) in one system, and I've added a Macbook (internal SSD drive, external USB drive) to firewire Weiss DAC2.

Well the system link said "(updated)"!  But of course, you mentioned earlier the Weiss DAC was your preference over the Berkley.  Well, I think at that high level it must come down to minor preferences, and I would have to assume that your 2 channel sings like a sweet songbird.
 
Since there is so much going on in movies, audibly and visually, I wonder whether a DAC improvement would really have that much impact?  Which leaves just the multi-channel music part of the equation.
 
Anyway, interesting concept, and you have certainly maneuvered yourself into what has to be a stellar sounding system!
 
Steve

[bdiament]

Hi JoshK,

I'm curious if you know anything about the ULN-2.  Is it just a  channel version of the ULN-8?  It looked like it had more conventional connectors, too.

I believe Ted has basically answered your question.
I used a ULN-2 for years (before that a 2882 and now the ULN-8) and can say I found it to be a fabulous device. 

It might be considered more "audiophile friendly" insomuch as it has more commonly available connectors on the back instead of the ULN-8's DB25 connectors (the only way to fit all that connection in a box that size).

I can also say I'd rather have a ULN-2 running 24/96 than a number of 24/192 converters I've heard.  The higher rates place considerably more demands on the clocking, one of the things, in my view, at which Metric Halo excels.  And the '2 can also be used standalone (after initial setup with a Mac), with its own front panel volume control.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[ted_b]

Steve,
Thanks for the nice comments.

You and Jim have hit the nail on the head; if this is too complex and too jury-rigged for home use then it ain't worth it.  Diminishing return laws are likely in force here.     That's not to say the ULN-8 isn't worth a serious look simply as a 2 channel candidate, as Barry and others have espoused, but that's a different thread.     And again, my Weiss DAC2 is sweet!  That's a huge bar to get over, at least in my system (when you add in the extra $3K+). 

[bdiament]

Hi Steve,

...Well, I think at that high level it must come down to minor preferences...

I believe it can come down to preference at any level.
That said, I find some devices (or software algorithms) do a better job at passing their input unaltered.  Not everyone will necessarily want this however.

I mention software because sample rate conversion algorithms come to mind.  Most, but certainly not all, in my experience (and I've tested dozens and beta tested a few others) have a sonic signature - a slight brightening of the audio compared to the unconverted original.  Some folks will like the brightening.  It depends on what is being sought.  The criteria I use is direct comparison with the unconverted original, whether for sample rate conversion or for dither algorithms.

Similarly for converters, especially those that offer A-D, I compare the results with the output of the mic preamps.  Some very popular converters add a "silky" quality to the sound that can indeed be very pleasant and I can understand why folks like them.  Some, on the other hand, are less "editorial".

Preferences can be a part of any evaluation.  I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong".  It depends very much on what is desired.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[srb]

I used a ULN-2 for years (before that a 2882 and now the ULN-8) and can say I found it to be a fabulous device. 

I can also say I'd rather have a ULN-2 running 24/96 than a number of 24/192 converters I've heard.

So are you saying for 16/44.1 and 24/96 2-channel playback only use, the ULN-2 has equal sound quality to the ULN-8, or has several years technology improved that aspect?
 
I see they only mention OS X.  So I assume it can't be setup with a Windows machine, or does it need any setup for simple DAC playback?
 
Steve

[bdiament]

Hi Steve,

So are you saying for 16/44.1 and 24/96 2-channel playback only use, the ULN-2 has equal sound quality to the ULN-8, or has several years technology improved that aspect?

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  No, not at all.  The ULN-8, even at 16/44 is to my ears, in a class by itself.

What I meant was I'd prefer a ULN-2 over a number of competing devices, even though it "only" does 96k, because a number of converters I've heard, while being spec'd for 192k, don't do it very well or even as well as they do 44k or 96k. 

I suspect at least part of the reason is deficiencies in their clocking, which as I said, has considerably more demands placed on its accuracy as the sample rate goes up.

I have not heard the equal of the '8 at any sampling rate.  It just happens to really sing for my ears, at 192k, something many other converters I've heard don't appear to be able to do with anything like the same ease.
 

I see they only mention OS X.  So I assume it can't be setup with a Windows machine, or does it need any setup for simple DAC playback?...

MH doesn't make Windows drivers.  These are Mac only devices.
While I believe some input and output functions can be accessed without the software (MH can answer this for sure), the true capabilities of the device require setup with a Mac.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[jhm731]

Wonder if the Amarra Four sounds as good as the ULN-8.

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_hardware.html

[ted_b]

Wonder if the Amarra Four sounds as good as the ULN-8.

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_hardware.html

It's the same DAC (OEM'd from MH) minus the mic preamps.  Should sound identical.