IB2i's Arrive

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James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #20 on: 16 Oct 2009, 01:26 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triangle better!
« Last Edit: 16 Oct 2009, 04:38 pm by James Tanner »

Viajero5000

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #21 on: 16 Oct 2009, 02:00 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triange better!

Wow, James, you power thru speaker systems quicker than i can count!

Can you elaborate a bit by what you mean by more of the same, as you previously noted that the MB2s weren't the best fit for your room?

drummermitchell

Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #22 on: 16 Oct 2009, 02:17 pm »
I like that James,I WANT MORE :thumb:.

James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #23 on: 16 Oct 2009, 02:49 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triange better!

Wow, James, you power thru speaker systems quicker than i can count!

Can you elaborate a bit by what you mean by more of the same, as you previously noted that the MB2s weren't the best fit for your room?

Ya 'i' know - your only as good as your last demo around me. :icon_lol:

I will try and do a more detailed analysis but for now I like what I hear in the 'i' version of the speakers and my expectation is that the MB2i will follow in the same footsteps?

james

Viajero5000

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #24 on: 16 Oct 2009, 03:30 pm »

Ya 'i' know - your only as good as your last demo around me. :icon_lol:


 :D  that line reminds me of Gordon Gekko from the movie 'Wall Street' - 'you're only as good as your last trade around me'... come to think of it, with your 24/7 get go and tough lines such as those, you would've made quite a career on Wall St.! 

We look forward to your detailed analysis.

Robert D

Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #25 on: 16 Oct 2009, 04:29 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triange better!

Robert

95Dyna

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #26 on: 16 Oct 2009, 05:20 pm »
Bill If I could get some help that would be Great

Listening room  is 41x16x8 and the speakers are 3 feet from the front wall and 6 feet apart center to center.  I sit 12 feet back so a equal lateral triangle listening position.

Your Thoughts and feed back would be great

Regards Robert

Hi Robert,


I was just trying to interject some comic interlude by dragging the Pythagorean Theorem into the discussion.  If you have a tape measure you don't need it much to the chagrin of Pythagoras.  The Audio Physic website has a really good piece on the theory of speaker placement.  It serves as a good guideline but there are so many variables in each situation you still have to tweak to get it right in your room.   Below is the link.

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html

BTW if this pops up in German go back to the home page and click on English.

Happy placing,

Bill

Robert D

Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #27 on: 16 Oct 2009, 06:57 pm »
Thank you Bill

Robert

Robert D

Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #28 on: 16 Oct 2009, 07:10 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triange better!

Robert
POST SOME PIC'S
ROBERT

James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #29 on: 17 Oct 2009, 07:47 pm »
October 2009

James's Excellent Adventure

Hi All.

I have owned 3 versions of the PMC IB2 Transmission Line (TL) loudspeaker over the past 7 years. They have evolved over this timeframe and before I give my thoughts on the current version (IB2i) I thought some background in Transmission Line design might be in order. For all those interested in pictures and technical issues please link here: http://www.pmc-speakers.com/product.php?mode=view&pid=141

Advantages of Transmission line design:
The transmission line (TL) is considered the theoretical ideal as well as being what some consider to be the most complex construction required to load a moving coil loudspeaker design. The basic concept is that 'ALL' of the rear wave information coming off of the woofer - or any loudspeaker driver for that matter - would be absorbed by the enclosure (box) behind the woofer. In the real world this ideal is obviously impossible as the speaker box would be the size of Montana!

The most practical implementation is to create a long tunnel within a cabinet by introducing internal partitioning that folds the line up and down the length of the cabinet. At the very end of the line there is a very specific size of hole that vents directly into the room --- (today's secret - the vent is the same size as the woofer).  A major benefit to this construction is that the labyrinth (partitioning) braces the entire structure from beginning to end. This reduces cabinet coloration created by the effects of the outer walls of the cabinet flexing. Cabinet integrity and internal panel damping are essential to produce a successful design due to the TL's inherent ability to produce phenomenal low frequency extension, even from a modest size box.

The main driver is placed at one end of the TL, which is heavily damped with absorbent acoustic material. The foam or absorption material used, probably the least visually dramatic of the components is tremendously important. It has to absorb all the upper bass frequencies and allow the lower frequencies to exit the vent at the far end of the line 'in phase' with the main driver. It must also be exactly specified to ensure a consistent and balanced back-pressure on the driver by interfacing smoothly with the column of air within the line. With too high a damping, the driver cannot move freely enough, and conversely too little damping produces a lack of control and the result is a low frequency response similar to that of a regular ported design.

When this equilibrium is achieved between the length of line and the acoustic absorbency, the air density increases by up to 30% making the 'effective' line length far greater than its physical length. This back-pressure holds the main driver in a vice like grip and the control is effective over a huge frequency range, reducing unwanted cone movement which lowers audible distortion. This lack of harmonic distortion in the low frequency creates superb midrange clarity as it eradicates the effects of masking. The consistent air loading also facilitates full audible bandwidth at all listening levels allowing for extended periods of monitoring without the risk of fatigue.

So the main advantages of the TL design:
Lower distortion 
Improved driver control
Higher SPL
Lower bass extension from a given box size
Consistent balance at all levels

If you think about music being a transient condition then all this technology kind of falls into place. The ability of the loudspeaker to 'stop and go' on command without overhang has obvious major advantages. The loudspeaker follows the signal from the amplifier much more precisely and the result is much more accurate translation of the original input signal.

The IB2's - My 1st Adventure:
The first pair of IB2's I owned was 7 years ago, when they first came out, and were in a 20x25x8 listening room in the beginning and eventually ended up in a 23x16x8 listening room. They had a very full bodied sound with very impressive dynamics. They could sometimes sound a little thick with certain music and not quite as 'fast' or detailed in the 'micro' dynamic area but never aggressive or in your face. So if your room was a little bass sensitive say below 200Hz it could be an issue when the balance between the bass frequencies and the mid/highs was tilted towards the low end. OK with most classical but maybe a little ponderous with jazz and music with a lot of low to mid transient information. I modified my pair to be a fully active version (not condoned by PMC I might add) which tightened up the bass just enough in my room and I have to say was one superb sounding system. I sold them and replaced them with a second more up to date pair of IB2's a number of years later and used them in my more conventional size room = 16x23x8. I dubbed them 'the world's smallest 'full-range' 3-way point source speaker.'

My 2nd Adventure:
The second pair I tried making active as well and very strangely they sounded two thin and lacked body. I actually preferred these newer versions with their passive crossovers over the active version. I assume changes in the transmission line and the fact that the IB2's were never designed to be active may account for some of these issues. Passively they were very spacious and had a great sense of power and ease throughout the frequency response. Actively they sounded too thin and had a harness about the sound that was quite different from my first pair?  Passively they were just excellent and my only observation was that again the tonal balance favored the low end and because they were so good and full bodied in the lows they would sometimes not sound quite as 'fast' with transient material in the same way that other speakers I had would - (Ex: Thiel, Magnepan, Martin Logan). My journey continued and I recently sold pair two and purchased a pair of the new IB2i versions.

My 3rd Adventure:
OK so it has only been about a month since my last pair of PMC IB2's left the building and I already missed them.  I setup the new IB2i's on 21 inch Sound Anchor stands in sound room one - 16x23x8. They are 10 feet apart center to center are 4 feet from the front wall and I am sitting 10 feet back from the speakers with the midrange drivers just above ear level and their axis crossing about 2 feet behind my head. The first thing I noticed was they have a huge sound stage... really deep and really w--i--d--e!  But they sounded a little sterile (oh my god what have I done!) so I decided to curb my excitement and left them to burn in for a few hours - PMC recommends minimum 15 hours.

SEE BELOW
« Last Edit: 18 Oct 2009, 01:40 am by James Tanner »

James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #30 on: 17 Oct 2009, 07:48 pm »
SEE ABOVE

There have definitely been some changes in the 'I' series as they do retain some of the attributes of the previous versions of the IB2's but there are some fundamental sonic changes I can hear. They have new custom tweeters and as I write this I assume some work has been done on the transmission line loading and cabinet? I decided that I would let them play for a full week 24/7 before I did any critical listening. By the way I want to reiterate the fact that all these comments are based on these speakers in 'MY' room- things may vary depending on your specific circumstances.

The first thing I noticed after settling in was that the overall tonal balance appears to be much more balanced or neutral now in the IB2i. The pervious versions I owned sounded as if the bass frequencies say from about 400Hz down were a little more prominent than the frequencies above 400Hz. In rooms that could use this bass contour everything would work out quite well but in rooms where there was a build up of bass due to small room resonances and standing waves things could get a little heavy sounding. The IB2i's seem to have less of this so I assume PMC have 'voiced' them a little different. It threw me off at first as my previous pair of IB2's would go down to 27Hz in my room and had excellent flatness over the bass range between 200Hz and 27Hz. The new ones sounded thinner through this range and made the mids and top sound a little aggressive. The more I played them though the more balanced they became- which makes sense as mechanical drivers change a lot over the first few hours due too suspension run in. So I waited a little and moved things around a little and I now think I have things pretty well dialed in.

TRANSIENTS:
I do not know if it was the tonal rebalancing or what but the IB2i has a much greater sense of transient control now. Plucked instruments like mandolin, guitar and bass fiddle really have that fast attack and decay characteristic now that is so true of real instruments playing in real spaces. I have a cable feed that puts out 48K/16 bit PCM broadcast signals and there is an 'international' radio station that plays all kinds of middle-eastern and far-eastern music. The spaces and quiet between the plucked instruments that this type of music tends to highlight is really excellent through the IB2's. I assume the new tweeter and the integration of the tweeter to the midrange dome has a lot to do with the transient advantages I hear and the extension and openness in the extreme top end.

MIDRANGE:
The mid band has to be the triumphant though with these speakers. The proprietary PMC 3 inch soft dome midrange is absolutely superb.  Voices just hang in space and there is a real palpability to the body and texture of the voice. It really sounds like the person is in the room - excellent!  Also multiple voices like in a full chorus or my favorite test group Ladysmith Black Mambazo each and every voice is delineated and position in its own acoustic space - really great stuff - I get chills!  My folk favorite Leonard Cohen has a sort of chesty gravelly voice and it really comes through on the IB2i's. The other point about the mid driver is it seems to be able to handle huge amounts of power so when voices go from a whisper to a scream you never get the--Christ, turn that down will you--- stimulus. As you can tell I really like the midrange in this speaker. They have a breathiness and tangibility that is intoxicating and can really fool you into thinking that was a real voice you just heard in that recording off axis -- 'is it real or Memorex.'

BASS:
The bass is no slouch either in this speaker and as I said earlier I think it has been tuned back a little from earlier versions of the IB2. The bass is not as pronounced overall and it sounds smoother and more extended and seems to blend a bit better through the crossover point (380Hz). In my room it puts out a good 30Hz and sound very well controlled and the word I use is 'puffy bass'. Puffy bass is hard to for me to describe but it's a kind of punchy but controlled bass where you get the sensation of bass moving air but there is no overhang that creates a kind of drone or lingering to the really low tones.

Some of this lingering is room related of course but I think this is indicative of another advantage transmission line loading has when it comes to loudspeakers and room interaction at low frequencies. Transmission line speakers tend to have a very smooth roll-off in the low end- typically at about 6db per octave whereas ported systems tend to roll-off much quicker (12-24dB per octave). As luck would have it 'room gain' tends to build at about 6dB per octave as well. Room gain is what happens in a room when the speaker interacts with the boundaries of any given listening room. This tends to raise the level of the perceived bass in the room. Its one of the reasons I thing that mini-monitors can sound reasonably full-range in a listening room even though in an anechoic condition it would have very limited low frequency capability.  With a big full-range speaker this room gain can work against you because instead of augmenting the bass and fleshing it out it tends to overload the room and make things sound thick, slow and undefined. So with a transmission line design there is a natural innate advantage where the bass roll off characteristics of the speaker augments the natural bass increase due to room gain and the bass buildup is less problematic as a result. This explains why I think you can get away with placing a larger PMC speaker in a smaller room that you would expect because the bass integrates nicely in small spaces with transmission line speakers. It also makes finding the 'magic spot' in the room for maximum flat frequency response much easier.

DYNAMIC COMPRESSION:
Dynamic compression (softest vs. loudest sounds) in loudspeakers is much more prevalent than most listeners realize. Dynamic compression (this may not be all that technical but its what it does that;s important here) is when the loudspeaker has exceeded its power handling capabilities and it simply will not play any louder so it compresses or flattens out acoustically and diminishes the dynamic range of the music. In the real world if you have ever stood beside a real cannon being fired or even a car backfire (or best in a great concert hall)  you will know what I mean when there is no dynamic compression going on. Loudspeakers suffer from this dynamic compression to one degree or another depending on the type of speaker we are dealing with. At one end of the spectrum is the 'Horn Compression Driver' which has huge dynamic capability contrasted with the 'Electrostatic speaker' which typically has very limited dynamic capability relatively speaking. The PMC IB2i's while not at the compression driver echelon (although the midrange dome driver is horn loaded) is exceptional on very dynamic transient material. You really get the feeling of live instruments operating in live spaces. It does not squash down the level or limit the transients in the way many speakers do. This gives the speaker a real sense of 'life' when it comes to reproducing music. Sadly dynamic compression is used in a lot of recordings these days (mainly pop) to improve the audibility of audio in noisy environments so played on a speaker like the PMC these recordings never achieve the kind of realism the IB2i is capable of. My guess is the IB2i will show very low distortion at very high listening levels!

INTEGRATION:
OK the last point I want to make is that I am very impressed with the way PMC has been able to integrate all 3 drivers in the IB2i. This is not an easy task and it shows that a lot of work has been done in balancing the on and off axis frequency response of the speaker. It really sounds like one big driver rather than 3 different drivers - good job guys!  This detail to the on/off axis polar response also assists in the tonal balance of any reflected sound being accurately integrated by the ear/brain (but that's a whole different subject). The sound stage is deep and wide with excellent size and positioning.  I have one old ambisonic recording which I use a lot by Roger Waters to hear how well a speaker positions an image outside the left and right boundaries of the speaker and to show how well the speaker can resolve very low level details in the recording. In the first instance if sounds appear almost at your left and right shoulders (talking 'stereo' here by the way) then good things are happening. It the second instance there is a lot of overdubbing going on in the recording and trying to make out what is being said on some speakers is almost impossible and on others it's clear as day. The IB2i passes on both counts.

Relative to the two previous versions of IB2's I have owned I would say the new IB2i exhibits extended smoother low frequency response and much better dispersion on the top end with the new tweeter providing a much better 'out of box' musical experience.

CONCLUSION:
In conclusion, I would say that the PMC IB2i speaker provides a very good over all balanced approach if you like listening to many different and diverse kinds of music. A lot of times we audiophiles are forced to pick a speaker that performs well on the specific type of music we listen to the majority of the time. (I have my Quad 2905's for late night listening for example). The IB2i though has the ability to play bombastic classical works (Richard Wagner) to intimate jazz (Chet Baker) with excellent accuracy and realistic real world dynamics. It's a great all round speaker with ease of room placement as an added bonus.

james tanner

« Last Edit: 18 Oct 2009, 12:14 pm by James Tanner »

Gojo

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #31 on: 17 Oct 2009, 09:53 pm »
Thanks for the review James.  Very insightful.  When I looked last, as best as I can recall,Wikipedia's spiel on transmission line speakers wasn't as detailed or extensive.  My passing thought would be that PMC post some of your review, the TL background at least, at their website. I've been there enough times! That would certainly peak more interest in TL speakers, and PMC products, I think.  Again,  I don't recall finding anything that detailed their either, but Ian may correct me on that one.   Also confirms what I thought I was hearing with my IB2s.

Cheers

Joe

mclsound

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #32 on: 17 Oct 2009, 11:44 pm »
Hi All,

Well I have been playing around with the IB2i's for a few days and have decided I want more of the same. I am going to order the MB2i/XBD system.

james

The MB2i/XBD will also fit into my equal lateral triangle better!
Damn you to hell....I have to hear those babies..

jethro

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #33 on: 18 Oct 2009, 03:24 am »
James:

I'm losing track of your speaker purchases.
Do you now have the MB2's and the IB2i's ?


James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #34 on: 18 Oct 2009, 04:28 am »
James:

I'm losing track of your speaker purchases.
Do you now have the MB2's and the IB2i's ?

 :lol: On the PMC front --- Have the IB2i's sold the MB2's have the MB2i's on order.

james

Levi

Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #35 on: 18 Oct 2009, 04:36 am »
Good review there James.  You are spot on with the new i tweeter and the custom softdome midrange.

Cheers,
--Levi

Viajero5000

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #36 on: 18 Oct 2009, 10:28 am »
That is a superb review James. There are several pieces of information in the write up about TL design that I was previously not aware of, quite educational. I also didn't know that there have been two different versions of the IB2 over the years.   

Which downstream equipment and amp combinations worked best in your room with the IB2i?

It'll be quite interesting to see how the MB2i-XBD compares with the IB2i in your room. (The biggest challenge I've found with the MB2 [i, non i, XBD or non XBD] due to their size is setting them up to image properly and bass integration in averaged sized rooms).

Thank you for sharing your thoughts in detail, it's much appreciated!

James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #37 on: 18 Oct 2009, 12:28 pm »
Hi viajero5000,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.
Currently I am using 28B's, BP26/BCD-1/BDA-1 and a computer with Lynx sound card.
I agree that the advantage the IB2 has is the smaller baffle making soundstage optimization much easier.

james
« Last Edit: 18 Oct 2009, 04:07 pm by James Tanner »

Viajero5000

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #38 on: 19 Oct 2009, 03:07 pm »
Hi viajero5000,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.
Currently I am using 28B's, BP26/BCD-1/BDA-1 and a computer with Lynx sound card.
I agree that the advantage the IB2 has is the smaller baffle making soundstage optimization much easier.

james

Just one more question James... whose help do you entail while packing/unpacking/positioning and moving around all these massive speakers and amps???   :)

James Tanner

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Re: IB2i's Arrive
« Reply #39 on: 19 Oct 2009, 03:29 pm »
Hi viajero5000,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.
Currently I am using 28B's, BP26/BCD-1/BDA-1 and a computer with Lynx sound card.
I agree that the advantage the IB2 has is the smaller baffle making soundstage optimization much easier.

james

Just one more question James... whose help do you entail while packing/unpacking/positioning and moving around all these massive speakers and amps???   :)

You should see my arms - Popeye!

james