[adydula]

Hello,

Some of you know me from the SALK outstanding CD thread and lately I have started to re-think the advantages of digitizing my 300+ cd collection to a storage device etc..

Their are several concerns or questions that probably have been asked and answered many times before, I apologize for this but here they are:

1. I have a nice CD player, with good dacs and the sound is very acceptable to me, if I digitize the cd's then the sound doesnt go thru this device anymore, its got to go thru a Slim device etc with its own dac and associated sound. So I am thinking I will never use the cd player again?? And if the Slim device with its dacs sounds crappy to me then its more bucks for a better slim device or some combination of USB dac etc...

2. Are there any cd players that are really good and play FLAC files??

3. I know the convience of being able to select songs instantly from a SLIM or pc device is great, and not having t put the cd in the cd player is great...but all the bucks spent on it kind of bugs me...oh well.

Let me know your thoughts and or any recommendations on where to start..

My system is fairly simple, an OPPO BD 83 hdmi to a Onkyo 805 receiver to a pair of Salk SongTowers.

I am very computer literate and done have issues with networks or wireless etc...

Thanks in Advance
Alex

[lcrim]

I think you need to do your research. 

[ctviggen]

I no longer own a CD player (well, not technically true, since DVD players can play CDs).   If I want to listen to a new CD, I have to put it on my hard drive first.  Why would one want to use a CD player when one can select any song, artist, or album using the Squeezebox? 

[kgturner]

i think his main concern is sound quality and the fear that the squeezebox won't sound as good as his cd player. i can't speak for the quality of the oppo as i've never heard it, but if he's connecting via hdmi to the onkyo as his post implies, then he's using the onkyo's dac and not the oppo's. he could just as easily connect the digital out of the squeezebox to his onkyo and get the same sound.

kevin t

[srb]

i can't speak for the quality of the oppo as i've never heard it, but if he's connecting via hdmi to the onkyo as his post implies....

I believe Alex is using the analog outs of the Oppo to listen to music ("I have a nice CD player, with good dacs and the sound is very acceptable to me").
 
I don't have the Oppo BD 83, but I have heard that it has pretty good analog output as well.  I think it would be safe to say that the Squeezebox with it's internal DACs would not sound quite as good as the Oppo.
 
Have you compared the analog output of the Oppo with the digital output utilizing the Onkyo's DACs?  I would expect the the digital out of the Squeezebox to sound similar to the digital output of the Oppo, both being decoded by the Onkyo.  It is possible that the Squeezebox might be slightly inferior in that scenario, as it may have higher jitter at it's digital output than the Oppo.  A fair number of users here at AC have spent money to have just the digital section of the Squeezbox modified to reduce jitter, and the consensus is that made it sound better.
 
A mid-priced outboard DAC would conceivably sound better, but that has a lot to do with synergy and how jitter-free the digital ouput is.  I use iTunes on a PC with an S/PDIF coaxial out, and several of the DACs I tried in the $500 - $800 range sounded better than the DAC in my Rotel RSX-1056 receiver, but not as great of an improvement as I had hoped for the money spent.
 
Steve

[adydula]

srb,

Thanks for taking the time to listen and trying to help me understand more than I do at the moment.

The Oppo I have... I have both the HDMI and the CD analog outs connected and have used both to compare the dacs in the Oppo vs the Onkyo receiver.

There are times when I can not honestly tell the difference and then there are times when I do prefer one over the other.

The rub for me is buying a really nice dvd/cd player like the oppo and never using it for cd audio...if the FLAC source via a slimdevice / pc / network can be better than the oppo direct?

If the sound quality is substantially better via FLAC and a Slimdevice/DAC and you get the added convience of easy fast access to hundreds of cds etc this is great....and then its costing something out that is affordable..

But if the overall sound quality of FLAC and Slimdevice etc is only marginally bettter the why would one want to do this other than for the convience??

Sorry If I have not been clear...but I am trying to make sure by adding the cost of a Slimdevice and possibly a dac along with network storage and the time it would take to FLAC all my cds' is really worth the journey

OR

Do I get up and change the cd each and everytime I want to listen!!

All the best
Alex
 aa

[srb]

Alex,
 
I think you can improve upon the sound of the Oppo, but I suspect it will take an external DAC probably in the $500 - $1000 range.  There are a few new DACs that will be out in the next several months.  One I am looking forward to auditioning is one from Virtue Audio, utilizing one of the new ESS Sabre chipsets, and is supposed to have some advantages when used with digital outputs that do not have the lowest jitter.  NuForce will also be debuting two new DACs as well.
 
I understand what you are saying about a fair amount of money spent purely for the convenience of not swapping disks.  Of course, not to forget that the Oppo is a Blu-Ray player, high-quality DVD player, SACD player and DVD-A player, and would be worth it's price even if it didn't play CDs!
 
For me however, going to a digital storage player is much more than just the convenience of not swapping discs.  It is also the ability to make playlists as well as engaging random play, either for a playlist or the entire library.  You will hear music from your collection that you may have not thought to play.  I personally could never go back to discs, and many converts will echo my sentiments.
 
I also quickly prepare a 15-30 minute nightly playlist wirelessly streamed to the bedroom to fall asleep to.
 
Steve

[stereocilia]

srb,
There are times when I can not honestly tell the difference and then there are times when I do prefer one over the other.

The rub for me is buying a really nice dvd/cd player like the oppo and never using it for cd audio...if the FLAC source via a slimdevice / pc / network can be better than the oppo direct?

If the sound quality is substantially better via FLAC and a Slimdevice/DAC and you get the added convience of easy fast access to hundreds of cds etc this is great....and then its costing something out that is affordable..

But if the overall sound quality of FLAC and Slimdevice etc is only marginally bettter the why would one want to do this other than for the convience??

For me, the added convenience has been worth the effort, and there are a few benefits I really didn't anticipate.

1)I no longer have to struggle to keep cd's organized alphabetically so I can easily find what I want.
2)I don't need to keep my cds near my audio system.
3)I have been able to discover new music and expand my musical taste through internet radio.
4)I don't need to refer to the cd case and count the tracks on the back to find the title of a song. 
5)I can set the system to play my tracks at random, and to my surprise the computer is a better "DJ" than I am when I try. 
There may be others I've forgotten, and srb metioned a few, but my point is that the benefit to me is much more that just avoiding the need to "get up and change the cd."

I had the advantage of being able to use a friend's squeezbox before I made a purchase decision, and I can see why it would be difficult to dive right in before you've had a chance to try it.

There are a few inconveniences, though.
1) you have to burn the cds to your computer.  However, based on my experience it will not take as much time as you fear.  There's no deadline.
2) if your computer fails, no music (unless you switch back to cds until the computer is repaired)
3) if you use wi-fi, you may find that it can be interrupted or need to be reset now and then

I can't tell you if you will find change in how you play music beneficial or not, nor can I tell you if you will like the sound quality or not.  I think the squeezebox in its stock form sounds very good, but I haven't heard the Oppo.

I am very glad I switched to using a squeezebox, and I think the sound is a little better when a good-quality external dac is used.  But, if you are really worried about not liking the sound or if you don't think that the additional flexibility in organizing and playing music will make any difference to you, then there's no harm in continuing to do what has worked well for you.  For me, I would never go back to a standard cd player, and I would also venture that most who have changed would agree.  Best of luck.

[dvenardos]

Your are correct in that the big benefit comes if you haven't already spent the money on a good CD player. I use the sb3->channel islands VDA-2 dac and the sound is outstanding, especially since I hadn't spent $1,000 on a quality CD player. The squeezebox is definitely more convenient and you are right you probably won't use your CD player after you burn your CDs. If you like the DAC in your Onkyo then the squeezebox will sound good and the classic isn't a big investment. You can consider your Oppo your Blu-Ray/SACD/DVD-A player and justify it that way. 

[Bigfish]

Hello,

Some of you know me from the SALK outstanding CD thread and lately I have started to re-think the advantages of digitizing my 300+ cd collection to a storage device etc..

Their are several concerns or questions that probably have been asked and answered many times before, I apologize for this but here they are:

1. I have a nice CD player, with good dacs and the sound is very acceptable to me, if I digitize the cd's then the sound doesnt go thru this device anymore, its got to go thru a Slim device etc with its own dac and associated sound. So I am thinking I will never use the cd player again?? And if the Slim device with its dacs sounds crappy to me then its more bucks for a better slim device or some combination of USB dac etc...

2. Are there any cd players that are really good and play FLAC files??

3. I know the convience of being able to select songs instantly from a SLIM or pc device is great, and not having t put the cd in the cd player is great...but all the bucks spent on it kind of bugs me...oh well.

Let me know your thoughts and or any recommendations on where to start..

My system is fairly simple, an OPPO BD 83 hdmi to a Onkyo 805 receiver to a pair of Salk SongTowers.

I am very computer literate and done have issues with networks or wireless etc...

Thanks in Advance
Alex

Alex:

There are no real easy answers to your questions.  Others have already posted the advantages of digital streaming players.  If you ever try one it is unlikely you will want to go back to playing CDs. 

I doubt you will get better sound from a purely stock Duet or Squeezebox than you currently obtain from the Oppo Player.  A friend of mine (Richidoo) can provide more details but I know he runs a Sonos Player into a new Buffalo DAC (around $500 in kit form) then into his amps.  He has all of the conveniences of a streaming player and music quality that would rival the very best CD Players for around $1000 or so invested. 

Others will likely disagree but it will be difficult to achieve very high quality sound from a (cheap) stock streaming player without adding an external DAC or modding the streaming player.  I personally own a ModWright Modified Transporter for my main system and an Analog Modded Bolder Squeezebox feeding a Burson Buffer in my second system.  Thus, I do have some personal experience with streaming players and I would not go back to CDs.

Good Luck,

Ken

[adydula]

srb. sterocilia, dvernardos, bigfish...

Many thanks for your thoughts, this discussion id exactly what I needed. I have always been a minimalist with my audio experiences, the least amount of stuff in between the source and the sound. But good stuff.

What I have is good to me, but the number of cd's and total songs has become a chore, looking and finding etc...

I guess I might venture into this area with a classic squeezbox and the receiver and see how it goes...

Many thanks for the pros and cons here, it is appreciated!!

Alex!
 

[adydula]

Another novice question.

After researching several sites, I see that some devices both Logittech and NetGear allow you to hook up their streaming device to a USB hard drive.

Question is how much storage is needed for 250 - 300 cd ripped into FLAC.

So if I get a device like these, it looks like I might not have to have a pc on at all..with the netgear streaming device, connected to a USB had drive, to the netgear which connects to a dac then to the receiver or directly to the receiver etc..

The netgear streaming device uses the TV or disply screen to select music from...this is good to me.

Alex

[Wayne1]

Alex,

Being a bit biased, I would suggest you try out one of the Logitech devices.

The Touch is slated to go to market sometime in December. It will not need a computer to run. It can read files direct from a USB port or an SD card.

You can rip your entire collection, in flac and it should fit on a 16 gb SD card.

I think about the smallest external HD these days is 80 GB and sell for around $50.00

You could also pick up a 500GB for maybe $20.00 more. 1TB drives typically go for around $100.00 these days. Storage is very inexpensive. You collection will expand and it pays to think ahead.

Whatever size you decide on, make sure you buy two and keep one as a back-up. Hard drives WILL fail.

[Bob in St. Louis]

And then have Wayne mod it for you.  aa

Bob

[adydula]

Funny how I was just reading reviews of modded SB's by Wayne and he chimes in!! 

Well heres a question for you Wayne, the SB touch was very interesting t me, and yes i saw that it can attach a usb hard drive..etc no computer this is good to me, not that I dont have mega-tb's in storage lying around (I DO!).

The touch has a remote I think so if the SB Touch unit has to be close to the Receiver to be cabled up...and yo sit 12-15 feet away how do you use the touch feature OR does this mean just longer cables??

I dont know if the remote will allow you to see anything on it via a lcd??

The storage size is great..really not that bad at all.

Also are you playing with the Touch now? NDA etc...and are u contemptlating modding it!??

Thanks for the info, I am on the Logitech notify list...

Alex

[Wayne1]

I am not a beta tester for the Touch. I have not seen one, at this time.

I would very much like to get my hands on one and figure out mods for it.

The Touch feature is just one small part of the difference between the Touch and the present line. It is one that I don't think too many people will use. It does have a bigger display to show album art, a feature that has been asked for. You CAN control it with the Squeeze Box Controller, for extra money, if you have a wi-fi network up and running. You can also control it with an iPhone or iTouch with an app and wi-fi.

The big differences, as far as I can tell from reading about it, are a faster and larger processor, more memory, new DAC chip so it can natively decode 24/96 and a new sp/dif output circuit said to sound quite a lot better than the earlier models.

It will require a different build of SqueezeCenter to run. Apparently there will be another release, 8.0, about the time the touch is available for sale. I believe you will have to hook the unit up to a computer at first to update the firmware. After that it should be able to run without the computer being on.

If anyone is interested, Logitech recently updated their hardware comparison wiki: Hardware Comparison

[srb]

You can rip your entire collection, in flac and it should fit on a 16 gb SD card.

Obviously filesize depends on the FLAC level of compression, and FLAC has a variable bit rate, but it seems most people are averaging 300MB or so per album, so based on that, 250 - 300 albums may require somewhere between 75MB and 90MB.  No?
 
Steve

[Wayne1]

OOPS 

Dropped a decimal point.

It should be 150 GB.

30-50 albums will fit on a 16 GB SD card.

My assumption was 500 MB per file, leaving room. For 300MB an album the amount needed would be 90 GB.

Either way, storage is still cheap 

[srb]

Either way, storage is still cheap 

Except for the current available largest size of any form factor.  The 2TB hard drive or in particular the 128GB flash drive or SSD drive is always quite a bit more per GB than the size below it.
 
I'm using a hard drive for my library storage, size is no problem (like it is for HD Video).  I would like to get an iTouch for remote control, but as my current library is ~64GB now, I am going to wait for the 128GB version, as I would want my entire (future) library to fit on it for portable use.
 
Steve

[adydula]

Thanks to all I am rippping via dbpoweramp as we type!! Only 299 more to go!

The Touch is going to have a new 24/96 dac and USB drive support so no need for a pc to be on at all!!

Yahoo!
All the best
Alex