Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities

TomS · « **Reply #160 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 04:20 pm »

Since we're already a bit off track, for the guys using alternatives to the DCX, I'd love to hear more about why you chose them (Ashly, DBX, QSC?) since they obviously cost quite a bit more.

I'm considering getting another DCX as we speak, since I sold my hotrod version a while back. All I'm using it for is to take 2 balanced inputs from my preamp, sum the L/R to a single output bus, then XO and EQ 3-4 subs individually via the balanced outs. I don't use any high pass to drive mains (Geddes Abbeys) at all, just subs. I've looked at some of the DSP engines such as MiniDSP that allow you to configure filters on PC, download via USB, and disconnect it (no front panel control needed). In theory very nice, but they still aren't even close to the functionality of the DCX which is only $300. My beef with the Behringer is the PC UI and interface leaves a lot to be desired so I'm just wondering if the others improve on this much?

jtwrace · « **Reply #161 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 08:25 pm »

Back on track...

I've been really interested in horns lately. My other thread was ditched so I'll join this one if I may?

What's the recommended horn system. Say build from scratch including the woofer cabinet? I saw the AH-300 and am intrigued by it.

Anyone?

JoshK · « **Reply #162 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 08:57 pm »

Well, I won't lie to you. Designing a horn system is tricky business. So many seem so ill-conceived. The best approach is to consult a pro, build a kit, buy a finished product or careful study and clone a commercial product.

There are Geddes kits available, econowave projects on the web, Brandon's budding project (goes by augerpro), or buy the AH300 and have Bill help you design a speaker (comes with the purchase of the horn, according to him).

You can plow unknown territory like I am attempting to do, but there are many pitfall to avoid and you have to not get frustrated easily. Measurement equipment, know-how and willingness to do lots of reading/research are a must.

If I didn't find a lot of joy in the process, I'd buy one of Geddes's kits and be done. But that is my leaning.

josh

nullspace · « **Reply #163 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 09:25 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 4 Mar 2010, 08:25 pm

What's the recommended horn system.

It depends, which horn systems have you heard? What did you like about them? What did you not like about them?

Maybe it's the personalities involved, but some of the most heated throw-downs I've witnessed have been about horns and which ones are best. So, I don't think there is any consensus on which is numero uno -- it's more a matter of finding out which one is best for you.

If you're able, I think RMAF is a decent opportunity to hear some of the current commercial examples. CAR is usually there with their tractrix horns as is BD-Designs, Duke @ Audiokinesis (wide-anle waveguides) has said he'll be there this year, haven't yet heard if OMA will be attending with one of their conical horn loudspeakers. To hear some old-school Altecs or JBL you'll have to find a friend who will invite you over, though...

John

macrojack · « **Reply #164 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 09:27 pm »

I haven't any experience with audiophile horns outside of the pair I own. Since you mentioned the AH300, I'll tell you whatever I can about them.
Since I'm not an expert at all, the best I can do is tell you why I chose them. It was because I saw the Cogent system used them, because Oswald's Mill used them and because Chris Brady has them, although didn't select the horns separately but just bought the Cogent System intact.
I learned that the common denominator in all of these successes was Bill Woods and his tiny Acoustic Horn Company. I learned that Bill holds a degree in industrial design and that he started his own speaker manufacturing company in Canada in the 1970s. His successes in designing his own speakers attracted the attention of Yorkville Sound and he was enlisted to do some design work for them. Over time his affiliation grew and he became an employee, eventually becoming chief design engineer at Yorkville. He held that post for 18 years until the corporatization of the company and his age conspired to send him into a more independent enterprise. Today, in addition to designing, building and selling his own horns, he consults with driver manufacturers around the world. This resume, combined with his very pleasant personality, emboldened me to take a chance and order a pair of horns. No regrets.

I've had my horns for about 15 months now and I still feel like they will be my last pair of speakers. If you happen to have some big, efficient woofer cabinets on hand, as I did (JBL L-200), it is a simple matter to integrate them using an outboard crossover. Your Ashley looks like it would be perfect. The only thing my dbx appears to have over it is the RTA feature.
Call Bill and talk about it. He won't exert any salesmanship at all and you will be amazed by his encyclopedic knowledge. (705) 696-2092

jtwrace · « **Reply #165 on:** 5 Mar 2010, 12:46 am »

Quote from: macrojack on 4 Mar 2010, 09:27 pm

I haven't any experience with audiophile horns outside of the pair I own. Since you mentioned the AH300, I'll tell you whatever I can about them.
Since I'm not an expert at all, the best I can do is tell you why I chose them. It was because I saw the Cogent system used them, because Oswald's Mill used them and because Chris Brady has them, although didn't select the horns separately but just bought the Cogent System intact.
I learned that the common denominator in all of these successes was Bill Woods and his tiny Acoustic Horn Company. I learned that Bill holds a degree in industrial design and that he started his own speaker manufacturing company in Canada in the 1970s. His successes in designing his own speakers attracted the attention of Yorkville Sound and he was enlisted to do some design work for them. Over time his affiliation grew and he became an employee, eventually becoming chief design engineer at Yorkville. He held that post for 18 years until the corporatization of the company and his age conspired to send him into a more independent enterprise. Today, in addition to designing, building and selling his own horns, he consults with driver manufacturers around the world. This resume, combined with his very pleasant personality, emboldened me to take a chance and order a pair of horns. No regrets.

I've had my horns for about 15 months now and I still feel like they will be my last pair of speakers. If you happen to have some big, efficient woofer cabinets on hand, as I did (JBL L-200), it is a simple matter to integrate them using an outboard crossover. Your Ashley looks like it would be perfect. The only thing my dbx appears to have over it is the RTA feature.
Call Bill and talk about it. He won't exert any salesmanship at all and you will be amazed by his encyclopedic knowledge. (705) 696-2092

Thank you. I've just started an email trade. I'll keep you updated.

Yes, I plan on going to RMAF this year to listen to a bunch of stuff.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #166 on:** 5 Mar 2010, 12:58 am »

I agree w/macrojack.

The Oswald Mills speakers at RMAF were amazing and one of the few horns that I like. In this system, a horn is only used for the midrange, there was a ribbon tweeter in a waveguide and a large conventional woofer cabinet. If I had the $$$ and a room worthy of them, I'd consider building a DIY fully active system using that midrange horn. Unless you have an extra $50k, then just buy the Oswald Mills speakers...

jtwrace · « **Reply #167 on:** 5 Mar 2010, 01:17 am »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 5 Mar 2010, 12:58 am

I agree w/macrojack.

The Oswald Mills speakers at RMAF were amazing and one of the few horns that I like. In this system, a horn is only used for the midrange, there was a ribbon tweeter in a waveguide and a large conventional woofer cabinet. If I had the $$$ and a room worthy of them, I'd consider building a DIY fully active system using that midrange horn. Unless you have an extra $50k, then just buy the Oswald Mills speakers...

Very cool. I wonder how a RAAL ribbon tweeter with the AH-300 and Scan Speak woofer would do. The wheels are a turnin'.

macrojack · « **Reply #168 on:** 5 Mar 2010, 01:41 am »

I have less than $5000 in my speakers including the dbx Drive Rack and the Perreaux power amp driving the woofers. The OMA speakers use a passive crossover.

DanTheMan · « **Reply #169 on:** 15 Mar 2010, 05:58 pm »

If you are careful, under $500 can get you this:

I've got it a bit smoother since then, but was a nice start. Top line is on axis, each subsequent is 11.25 degrees more off axis. Since that graph, the tweeter output has been reduced a bit and the 2k bump is flatter.

Dan

JoshK · « **Reply #170 on:** 16 Mar 2010, 12:26 pm »

Quote from: DanTheMan on 15 Mar 2010, 05:58 pm

If you are careful, under $500 can get you this:

I've got it a bit smoother since then, but was a nice start. Top line is on axis, each subsequent is 11.25 degrees more off axis. Since that graph, the tweeter output has been reduced a bit and the 2k bump is flatter.

Dan

Is that one of the econowave projects?

DanTheMan · « **Reply #171 on:** 16 Mar 2010, 04:32 pm »

Nope. It's a not too distant cousin though. Certainly in the same price range.

Dan

JoshK · « **Reply #172 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 01:01 am »

Why so cryptic?

I have been hosting family visits, and will be hosting for another two weeks, so little is getting done on my projects. However, I am eagerly awaiting arrival of two pairs of Eleven horn mahogany turned horns. One pair of custom made OS/LC horns, one pair of 140hz LC horns.

Given, I have a rare opportunity to go a little crazy, I've been thinking about building bass horns (upper bass horns to be more correct). Thinking in the 60hz+ range. I plan to use distributed tapped horns for bass bass. I am in brainstorming phase.

Plan is to use my bass bins initially and who knows where it goes from there. I read hornographic
pursuits with my different eyes than many perhaps.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hornographic1/1.html

DanTheMan · « **Reply #173 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 05:51 pm »

Less cryptic:
The woofer is an Eminence Delta Pro 12A
Specifications: *Power handling: 400 watts RMS *VCdia: 2.5" *Le: 0.84 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.71 ohms *Frequency range: 52-4,500 Hz *Magnet weight: 80 oz. *Fs: 51 Hz *SPL: 99.2 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 2.9 cu. ft. *Qms: 7.56 *Qes: 0.37 *Qts: 0.35 *Xmax: 4.6 mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.38", Cutout Diameter: 11.07", Mounting Depth: 6.22".

See this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf

The tweeter is a Selenium D220Ti-8 mounted on the Dayton H10RW 10" Round Waveguide.
Specifications: *Power handling: 80 watts RMS/160 watts program (with recommended 2,000 Hz, 12 dB/octave crossover) *Voice coil diameter: 1.7" *Throat diameter: 1" *Impedance: 8 ohms *Frequency response: 1,000-21,000 Hz (no crossover) *SPL: 109 dB 2.83V/1m *Magnet weight: 24 oz. *Dimensions: Diameter: 4.53", Depth: 2", 2.75" including threaded "nose".
Again this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

Dan

JDUBS · « **Reply #174 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 11:36 pm »

Crossover details, pics, etc.?

-Jim

Quote from: DanTheMan on 17 Mar 2010, 05:51 pm

Less cryptic:
The woofer is an Eminence Delta Pro 12A
Specifications: *Power handling: 400 watts RMS *VCdia: 2.5" *Le: 0.84 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.71 ohms *Frequency range: 52-4,500 Hz *Magnet weight: 80 oz. *Fs: 51 Hz *SPL: 99.2 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 2.9 cu. ft. *Qms: 7.56 *Qes: 0.37 *Qts: 0.35 *Xmax: 4.6 mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.38", Cutout Diameter: 11.07", Mounting Depth: 6.22".

See this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf

The tweeter is a Selenium D220Ti-8 mounted on the Dayton H10RW 10" Round Waveguide.
Specifications: *Power handling: 80 watts RMS/160 watts program (with recommended 2,000 Hz, 12 dB/octave crossover) *Voice coil diameter: 1.7" *Throat diameter: 1" *Impedance: 8 ohms *Frequency response: 1,000-21,000 Hz (no crossover) *SPL: 109 dB 2.83V/1m *Magnet weight: 24 oz. *Dimensions: Diameter: 4.53", Depth: 2", 2.75" including threaded "nose".
Again this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

Dan

macrojack · « **Reply #175 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 12:30 am »

That's right, Dan. Open up. There are no secrets in The Lab.

hum4god · « **Reply #176 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 07:11 pm »

Oh Yeah the AH300, a wonderful horn .
i just received mine a few weeks ago and started tweaking and tinkering....
i am running B&C DCM drivers which is what Bill Woods recommends .
i will receive the big RAALS next week but i don't know how i will implement them yet .
so far i run the horn from 400hz with open top .
crossover is done by tact in digital domain.
unfortunately, tact only provides 2 way crossover with the 2.2xp unless i want to buy a tact amp to power the raals .
so i am very undecided what to do:

change to a deqx unit for 3 way crossover and speaker correction?
the deqx is quite expensive and i would have to sell the tact first to finance the change , so that doesn't work.
or i go with a tact amp which has inbuilt xover function but i am not sure i will like the tact amps sound with the raal .

too many options ....

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #177 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 07:35 pm »

I love horns. The biggest thing I'm looking for is directivity control... not acoustic gain. That and I'm not interested in big enclosures so all of my efforts have surrounded what you would call a waveguide not a full-fledged horn system.

But some of my favorite systems are horn based. If I had a huge room at home I'd probably get crazy with mid-range and bass horns but I have to live with more modest sized enclosures and share them with my significant other.

nullspace · « **Reply #178 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 07:41 pm »

Since the RAAL is quite a bit less sensitive than the B&C DCM50+AH!300, I'm assuming you're talking about tri-amping. Do you already have a spare amp for the ribbons? Does that amp have a volume control? Do you happen to know the input impedence for that amp?

I know very little about the RAAL ribbons, but since you're going to be using it just for the top 1 or 1.5 octaves you might be able to get away with a simple 1st-order crossover.

And the B&C top-end looks pretty benign, so here's what I would try first: for the RAAL input I would use the same signal that you're using for the B&C driver with an inline RC network. You can tap the output signal of the amp driving the B&C. In between the binding posts and the input of the amp driving the RAALs, I would put a capacitor and perhaps a 10k ohm pot. If your RAAL amp has a volume control, no need for a pot -- if you don't have a volume control then you'll need the pot. The cap and the pot in parallel with the input impedence of the amp form a 1st-order filter -- you can try various C's using the workseet here: RFC calculator. There remains questions about the gain structure so you'll need to look into that, but most likely you're okay.

Seems to me that's a decent start.

John

macrojack · « **Reply #179 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 07:55 pm »

I don't know the relative efficiencies either but I imagine you use your TACT to pad down the horn output to the level of whatever woofer you are using, assuming you don't have a bass horn. If that is the case, you might find that your RAAL is close to the woofer efficiency.
In any case, that should get you close enough for OJT.

Using my dbx I reduce the horn output by 14 db to match my woofers.