[Audioclyde]

John,

You're correct, in my system and for my tastes, the Cary is quite a bit better than the other 2 integrated I own.  There is just so much more with the Cary, soundstage, more 'color' to the picture being painted if that makes any sense.  An audio buddy listening to my spkrs for the first time (admittedly he's also a tube amp lover) thought the Pathos just sounded too thin and solid state like compared to the Cary.

I've had lots of very good ss integrated over the past 10 years; my favorites in order:  Accuphase e-530, Jeff Rowland Concentra II and BAT VK-300 (the 6922 hybrid version).  I considered the Dialogue II before buying the Cary (I purchased from Kevin Deal), but wanted the Cary's headphone jack.  One great (or not so great on your pocketbook) is that a lot of different tube combinations can be tried in the Cary to nudge your sound one way or another.

Randy

[toobluvr]

........(snip)...... One great (or not so great on your pocketbook) is that a lot of different tube combinations can be tried in the Cary to nudge your sound one way or another.

Randy

I believe The Prima Luna Dialogue 2 offers the same versatility in that many different output tube types can be used.

[bacobits1]

Hey John,
Before I would buy a Prima I would buy the i34. But that is just me.

I like the Cary SLI-80 F1 too.

I would love to have these.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1258656290&/Lavardin-IS-Reference
or
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1258434183

No tubes I know but supposed to be outstanding pieces. Small footprint.
Rave reviews!

My 2 cents.

Good luck!

Den

[doug s.]

toob, i realize that with a retail price of "only" $2250, you may not think it worthy, but i would seriously try to give a listen to a manley stingray.  these can be extremely flexible, depending on how they are configured, (options), and the sound is really special.  yes, i think a pair of manley mahi-mahi monoblocks has a slight edge, but then you are not getting the simplicity you are looking for.

and, the tape loop option gives you the ability to complicate things a bit, if you like.   such as letting you add an active x-over, another (mondo s/s) amp, and a pair of subs; letting you use the stingray's amp for the mains, and actively crossing over to subs.  (i like!    )

http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html#specs


now, if you wanna spend more, (retail $3400), there is a new model out that has an ipod dock & remote.  i would surely want the remote, but i have no use for an ipod dock.

http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingrayitube.html


doug s.

[bluemike]

I agree Manley Stingray is a very good option 

[toobluvr]

Thanks for all the input and recs, guys!  Keep 'em coming!     

I have owned Manley gear in the past, an amp and a preamp.  I've heard good things about the Stingray, but I'm a bit hesitant to go to that well again. While I have treemendous respect for the Manley build quality, and their excellent customer services, I don't know that we are sonically simpatico.   I found the two pieces I owned to be just a touch too neutral and linear for my taste.....especially the preamp.  Detail, transparency and dynamics were exemplary and beyond reproach, but overall, just a bit too cool and almost solid statish, if you know what I mean.   

My preference is for a touch of color and embellishment.  Not lush lush or vintage tooby...just a touch to get good liquidity, warmth, tone, harmonics and  beauty.   Based on my readings, I don't get the feeling that the Stingray is in that camp.  Am I mistaken?     

[doug s.]

Thanks for all the input and recs, guys!  Keep 'em coming!     

I have owned Manley gear in the past, an amp and a preamp.  I've heard good things about the Stingray, but I'm a bit hesitant to go to that well again. While I have treemendous respect for the Manley build quality, and their excellent customer services, I don't know that we are sonically simpatico.   I found the two pieces I owned to be just a touch too neutral and linear for my taste.....especially the preamp.  Detail, transparency and dynamics were exemplary and beyond reproach, but overall, just a bit too cool and almost solid statish, if you know what I mean.   

My preference is for a touch of color and embellishment.  Not lush lush or vintage tooby...just a touch to get good liquidity, warmth, tone, harmonics and  beauty.   Based on my readings, I don't get the feeling that the Stingray is in that camp.  Am I mistaken?     

well...  i owned manley mahi's.  and, i had quite a few chances to hear a former in-law's early stingray driving both proac 1sc's and my proac tablette 8 ref signatures.  everything was always fantastic.  and, as far as my tastes go, i definitely prefer tubes over solid state.  i definitely like the gear to be neutral, tho; i also do not cotton to the "wintage" tube sound.  i wouldn't consider the manley gear "solid-statish".  but i have never heard a manley preamp.  (now, a modwright pre, tho excellent, i could consider almost solid-statish.)

two preamps that definitely err on the wintage side are the cary slp98 and especially the rogue magnum 99.  i could certainly live w/the cary - if i hadn't a-b'd it against the melos ma333r that i still use.  (and have no intention of replacing.)  the melos simply does everything exceptionally well, period.  fantastic soundstage, excellent timbre, dynamics, extension, etc.  doesn't sound tube or s/s - sounds like music.     the rogue 99 was so overblown, i preferred the linn kairn i was looking to replace.

the only reason i sold my mahi-mahi amps was because i stumbled across a great deal on a mesa baron that i yust had to have - i owned one prewiously, and it was destroyed by a bent ex-wife.  (don't ask...    )  if i could only have one amp, that would be it - the baron is yust an amazingly flexible, excellent sounding amp, that will drive yust about any speaker out there, in any room.   and something had to give, so it was the mahi's - i also have several low-power tube amps, and a 40w pair of audio-mirror 6c33c mono blocks, so the mahi's were the ones that had to go.  but, they are still fine sounding amps, imo.  and, if i had to base a system on an integrated, i would look at the stingray 1st.  especially since it now has remote, and especially since you can actively bi-amp w/it, to drive an outboard x-over, s/s amp,  and subs.  i cannot ever imagine having a serious rig w/o active x-over and subs, regardless of what speakers i am using.

used manley stingray's are occasionally awailable, and sell like hotcakes - you could always pick one up to try, and re-sell it w/o taking a financial beating...   

doug s.

[toobluvr]

Hey Doug S....thanks for the detailed and very helpful response!
And for yust keeping it real!   

Believe me......I really want to like the Stingray.  It is a wicked cool looking piece, and I usually like el84 based amps.  I will give it some serious consideration.

But are you sure about the remote?   I yust checked the Stingray on the Manley site and it specifically says "no phono, no remote".  Reason:   no room to cram anything else into the chasis...or so they say.       

[toobluvr]

oops....my mistake.

I see the remote comes with the brand new i-pod docking one.

[toobluvr]

One day I'll need to "drop in" on you....I've yet to hear those Sunny's...

Keep your camera handy, John...a Captain Wolfy pose with the Sunnys is in your imminent future.

Captain Wolfy is always welcome, but I fear he has waited too long this time.   

System downsizing in effect.....Dodd amps are probably out the door tomorrow!     

So he won't hear Sunny's at their best.  But his speaker measuring abilities will be unaffected, and he needs to add this one to his photo collection.   

Hey, it beats collecting butterflies!           

[ecramer]

Thanks for all the input and recs, guys!  Keep 'em coming!     

I have owned Manley gear in the past, an amp and a preamp.  I've heard good things about the Stingray, but I'm a bit hesitant to go to that well again. While I have treemendous respect for the Manley build quality, and their excellent customer services, I don't know that we are sonically simpatico.   I found the two pieces I owned to be just a touch too neutral and linear for my taste.....especially the preamp.  Detail, transparency and dynamics were exemplary and beyond reproach, but overall, just a bit too cool and almost solid statish, if you know what I mean.   

My preference is for a touch of color and embellishment.  Not lush lush or vintage tooby...just a touch to get good liquidity, warmth, tone, harmonics and  beauty.   Based on my readings, I don't get the feeling that the Stingray is in that camp.  Am I mistaken?     

well...  i owned manley mahi's.  and, i had quite a few chances to hear a former in-law's early stingray driving both proac 1sc's and my proac tablette 8 ref signatures.  everything was always fantastic.  and, as far as my tastes go, i definitely prefer tubes over solid state.  i definitely like the gear to be neutral, tho; i also do not cotton to the "wintage" tube sound.  i wouldn't consider the manley gear "solid-statish".  but i have never heard a manley preamp.  (now, a modwright pre, tho excellent, i could consider almost solid-statish.)

two preamps that definitely err on the wintage side are the cary slp98 and especially the rogue magnum 99.  i could certainly live w/the cary - if i hadn't a-b'd it against the melos ma333r that i still use.  (and have no intention of replacing.)  the melos simply does everything exceptionally well, period.  fantastic soundstage, excellent timbre, dynamics, extension, etc.  doesn't sound tube or s/s - sounds like music.     the rogue 99 was so overblown, i preferred the linn kairn i was looking to replace.

the only reason i sold my mahi-mahi amps was because i stumbled across a great deal on a mesa baron that i yust had to have - i owned one prewiously, and it was destroyed by a bent ex-wife.  (don't ask...    )  if i could only have one amp, that would be it - the baron is yust an amazingly flexible, excellent sounding amp, that will drive yust about any speaker out there, in any room.   and something had to give, so it was the mahi's - i also have several low-power tube amps, and a 40w pair of audio-mirror 6c33c mono blocks, so the mahi's were the ones that had to go.  but, they are still fine sounding amps, imo.  and, if i had to base a system on an integrated, i would look at the stingray 1st.  especially since it now has remote, and especially since you can actively bi-amp w/it, to drive an outboard x-over, s/s amp,  and subs.  i cannot ever imagine having a serious rig w/o active x-over and subs, regardless of what speakers i am using.

used manley stingray's are occasionally awailable, and sell like hotcakes - you could always pick one up to try, and re-sell it w/o taking a financial beating...   

doug s.

Iv'e hear d the Rogue Magnum 99 described as being too dark Now it's too Tuby ?  What is the vintage tube sound?

[toobluvr]

A sound that is excessively tubey, or vintage,  has the following characteristics:

soft
round, lacking in transient attack
slow
excessive warmth
lacking in snap and impact
rolled on top
bloated on the bottom
and yes....dark

Dark because it is rolled in the high frequencies and lacks sparkle and air.  Also because the tubby bass intrudes into the midrange creating excessive warmth, and lending a "darkish" tonal quality to the overall sound.

[gray49]

Hello...
Stumbled into this...
No relation to seller...

http://trade.audioasylum.com/ca/listing/Integrated-Amplifier-Tube/Audiomat/Arpege-Reference/Integrated-Amp/21111

Peace...
Stuart

[ecramer]

I do not seem to have that problem with my Rogue Magnum 99, in this system i found the bass tight when paired with my  Odyssey mono extrems.  I will say that the bass has loosened up some when i switched to the Quicksilver MS-190 and am now running all tubes.
 Like anything in this hobby every bodys ears are different. I was at a rave at Phils in NY and the guy on my riight was telling me the set of Heil speakers were the worst thing he ever heard while the guy on my left not 1 minute later it was the best tweetwer he had ever heard 

Ed

[JoshK]

I think they are ugly as sin, but I've read great things about EAR amps in this family.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1257723489&/EAR-899

[doug s.]

A sound that is excessively tubey, or vintage,  has the following characteristics:

soft
round, lacking in transient attack
slow
excessive warmth
lacking in snap and impact
rolled on top
bloated on the bottom
and yes....dark

Dark because it is rolled in the high frequencies and lacks sparkle and air.  Also because the tubby bass intrudes into the midrange creating excessive warmth, and lending a "darkish" tonal quality to the overall sound.

when i auditioned the cary slp98, rogue magnum 99 and the melos ma333r, (which was stock at the time), i was using a pair of electrocompaniet aw75dmb amps driving a pair of meret re's wertically bi-amped.  (for those unfamiliar w/these excellent monitors, they are rhombus-shaped monitors, w/heavy constrained-layer cabinetry, including lead; drivers are focal titanium inwerted dome tweets & eton carbon-fibre 7" midwoofers.)  low bass was handled by a pair of adcom gfa555's driving a pair of vmps larger subs, crossed over at 80hz w/a marchand xm9ll active x-over.

the cary actually sounded similar to what you describe, but it was overall pleasant enough.  it offered a definitely different presentation than the linn kairn which was my pre at the time; the linn being pretty perfect everywhere except soundstaging that was relatively flat.  and the sound was almost clinical - there was decent enough width/depth/height to the staging, but no air - it sounded more like a recording, not so much like music.   the cary did soundstaging right, but the detail, extension, and dynamics was definitely not competitive w/the linn.  the rogue, on the other hand yust overdid the soundstaging way too much - way too bloomy.  even small ensembles and vocals sounded way too large.  i specifically remember patricia barbour on cafe blue sounding like her mouth was eight feet wide...  (it was relatively easy to get decent soundstaging in that room, which was ~26x38x8.5.  speakers were about 6' from the back wall, and about 8 & 10 feet from their respective side walls.)  the melos was the real eye-opener - it was as good or better than the linn in all areas the linn was strong, yet offered up a palpable soundstage that was simply right - plenty of bloom & air, w/o anything being overdone.

while i never listened to the stingray in that room, or w/those speakers, the sound was closer to what i get w/the melos pre and other amps, even tubed, than what i got with the linn, cary or rogue.  and, i have listened to my proac tablette 8 sigs in that rig/room, as well as w/the stingray, so i do have some sort of reference point...

doug s.

[toobluvr]

Hello...
Stumbled into this...
No relation to seller...

http://trade.audioasylum.com/ca/listing/Integrated-Amplifier-Tube/Audiomat/Arpege-Reference/Integrated-Amp/21111

Peace...
Stuart

Audiomat ....Nice!
Reported to just ooze emotion and musicality.

Another piece of kit that has intrigued me and been on my "must try" list for years!

Anybody know the power output?   Remote?

[toobluvr]

I think they are ugly as sin, but I've read great things about EAR amps in this family.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1257723489&/EAR-899

A local audio buddy had a full blown EAR setup.  Their best amp, pre and cdp.   Nice stuff!     

[JoshK]

Another top flight integrated that could probably compete with your hi-end seperates (that is what you are after, right?) is Airtight.  I've heard great stuff about these wares as well.  Spendy new though.

[toobluvr]

Another top flight integrated that could probably compete with your hi-end seperates (that is what you are after, right?) is Airtight.  I've heard great stuff about these wares as well.  Spendy new though.

Yep....AirTight gear is superb.  I have their ATC-1 full function preamp and it is VG.    I didn't know they made an integrated!

And yes....I am trying to downsize from good separates to an integrated without losing too much sonically.