Help wanted

jimdgoulding · « **on:** 11 Sep 2009, 09:31 pm »

Think there is one place remaining where I believe I should try and improve my sound. I have a Nottingham table. On it is a Rega 250 with a counterweight mod fitted with a Grado Sonata cartridge. I'm considering changing that out for a Kuzma Stogi S arm and a Shelter 501 MC. The reason I am considering those is because of the reviews I've been able to find and the dough. I must stay under two grand. There MUST be some members with the Shelter cartridge (and hopefully the Kuzma), a ton are in or have been in service. I would very much appreciate hearing about your experience with either of these instrments. Gracias.

AudioSoul · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 11:35 pm »

I had the Shelter 501 mk2 cart. and was very dissapointed with it. I had it installed in a medium mass tone arm (recomended) and it did'nt do anything for me. It wasnt bad it just didnt live up to the positive reviews I read. I live in a small town and dont have any audio shops so I could'nt hear it first. I should note that I bought it used. The stylus and suspension look good thou do I dont think it was defective. It was not a matter of taste, I just think an expensive cart. should live up to it's rep....

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 11:49 pm »

Thank you, brother Soul. The Dynavector 17D is competitively priced. Another I am considering at the price. Anybody have experience with this? I'm curious, Soul, in what you mean by "it's not a matter of taste". Was there a particular area where it failed to meet with your satisfaction?

toobluvr · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 05:39 am »

I am a big Kuzma fan. I currently own two Kuzma arms: Stogi S and Stogi Reference.

If I were you I would buy this Stogi Ref in a heartbeat:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1255392701&/Kuzma-Stogi-Reference-with-fin

Guy has been showing it for about 3 months now. Price looks good to me, no idea why it hasn't sold. But I bet he's good and motivated now so maybe you can get it for 1200, maybe even 1100. It is a killer, killer arm. I love it. And at that price, I doubt much can touch it. Stogi S is very nice as well, but for what you wanna spend, the Ref is the one.

Then with your remaining 800 or 900 dollars, I would shop carefully for a used cartridge. It will get you one that lists for 1500 to 2000 range. Lots of really really nice options there. Heck even for 800 new you can get some really fine cartridges.

Rather than re-type them here, see my comments and comparisons on various arms in this thread.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69786.0

Good Luck....buy the Stogi Ref! You can thank me later.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 07:02 am »

Too- I want to thank you now for your enthusiastic reply. And I shall visit those sites. I haven't forgotten bout your phono cable either. Still, I would like to hear from others regards. Again, thank you.

toobluvr · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 03:35 pm »

If you get either Kuzma arm, no cable is required.
They both come with their own captive cable, complete from cartridge pins to RCA connectors.

For separate phono cable, I really like Silver Audio Silver Breeze and Zu Cable Xaus.

toobluvr · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 09:38 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 11 Sep 2009, 11:49 pm

.......The Dynavector 17D is competitively priced. Another I am considering at the price. Anybody have experience with this? .........

I am using Dynavector 20X-H (high output version) with my Stogi Ref arm and it is spectacular: fast, explosive, dynamic, weighty, balanced and smooth. Table is Townshend Rock Reference III.

So enjoyable that I'd like to upgrade to the 17D, but I don't have enough gain.

Browntrout · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Sep 2009, 08:34 pm »

Have you considered the matching Nottingham Analogue arms to your table? Also I had the Grado Sonata and moved up to the The Reference and found a whole world of improvement to detail, speed and bandwidth I could recommend that cart to you and it can be made to special order as 1.5mv output if your phonostage can handle that. Also they do a trade up scheme where you can send back the Sonata and only pay the retipping cost of The Refernce and they send you a new The Reference so you don't loose any money, pretty good hey!

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 02:05 pm »

Yeah, fellas, now you've got me thinking. My phono pre may got have sufficient gain for a lotta of MC's. Thanks.

toobluvr · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 02:19 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 14 Sep 2009, 02:05 pm

Yeah, fellas, now you've got me thinking. My phono pre may got have sufficient gain for a lotta of MC's. Thanks.

Well....it's not that hard to figure out.

What is your phono section's gain, and the sensitivity profile of the balance of your system (that is, speaker sensitivity, amp input sensitivity, and line section gain)?

Knowing that, it's not hard to zero in on what cartridge output is needed.

See this thread for a relevant discussion re: cartridge output and system compatability:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69792.0

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 02:51 pm »

Toob- When you have a minute, visit here: http://www.monolithicsound.com/PS-1.html. Resistance, capacitance, loading options are spelled out. You think the 20X-H has enough output into this phono pre to give me uncompromised volume and dynamics? I use a tube ARC line stage. Thanks.

Later I tested that link and it doesn't work. How about googling Monolithic Sound. My unit is the PS-1. Thanks.

Browntrout · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 03:47 pm »

Well here are the stats for your PS-1 phonostage...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/monolithic-sound-pa-1-preamplifier-7-2000.html

Now using this very useful tool...
http://www.cartridgedb.com/edsstereo/edsstereo.htm#VoltageCalc

We can see that a cart with output of 0.5mv and using your maximum gain of 53db we get 223.3mv coming out of your phonostage going into your preamp. Now from a quick look at the Audio Research website they don't seem to state a sensitivity figure for the inputs on their preamps only a max input voltage.
Have a look at the owners manual and see what the input sensitivity is for your line in and then working backwards calculate the minimum output a cart must have to create this, near enough.
The 20X-H has enough output for sure as it is used to review the phonostage on their website. A better cart would more suit such a nice table and arm though don't you think?

toobluvr · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 04:29 pm »

Wow...really nice to have a phono pre that gives that much flexibility and versatility!

You did not mention your line stage gain....or your speaker efficiency....or your amp input sensitivity. They all enter into the equation.

I would say the 20X-H definitely has enough gain. If rest of your gear is in the "average range", you will probably be using the 35 or 44 db setting on your PS-1.

By average, I mean:

line stage...... 12-15 db gain

amp....... 1.0 to 1.4 volts input sensitivity

speakers....... 88 to 93 db sensitive

If volume or dynamics seem a bit short in your setup, just step up to the 53 db setting on your PS-1. With that much gain available, I can't imagine a system in which the 20X-H + PS-1 would be wimpy sounding.

I am in a good sized room and with the Dyna 20X-H I never go above 12 noon on my volume control, and I typically listen at about 9 or 10 o'clock. My setup is: speakers 91db, 15 db gain in line stage, 40 db gain in phono section, 1.4 volts amp input sensitivity.

With 53 db available in your phono stage, I would say maybe you can go as low as .5mV on the cartridge output. But again, depending on other gain / sensitivity parameters in your system you might be right on the edge. Or if you have an especially sensitive system, maybe you can go even lower. But in general, most systems need 60 to 62 db of total phono stage gain to properly drive cartridges below .5mV.

Since your PS-1 gives so much flexibility, I can confidently say that you are very safe in the 1.0 to 4.0 mV cartridge output range with most system profiles, even inefficient ones.

sturgus · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Sep 2009, 08:49 pm »

Jim, this is something you may want to look at. I think it is my next move.
Sturgus
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/ordering.html

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Sep 2009, 02:17 am »

Quote from: sturgus on 14 Sep 2009, 08:49 pm

Jim, this is something you may want to look at. I think it is my next move.
Sturgus
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/ordering.html

Thanks, Sturg, that looks very interesting. I'll read it in detail later.

sturgus · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Sep 2009, 03:20 am »

Jim, I forgot to include this link for the review. One of the GAS guys has one and I will be hearing it this week.
Sturgus
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0709/audiomods_rega_rb250.htm

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Sep 2009, 02:45 pm »

Quote from: toobluvr on 14 Sep 2009, 04:29 pm

Wow...really nice to have a phono pre that gives that much flexibility and versatility!

You did not mention your line stage gain....or your speaker efficiency....or your amp input sensitivity. They all enter into the equation.

I would say the 20X-H definitely has enough gain. If rest of your gear is in the "average range", you will probably be using the 35 or 44 db setting on your PS-1.

By average, I mean:

line stage...... 12-15 db gain

amp....... 1.0 to 1.4 volts input sensitivity

speakers....... 88 to 93 db sensitive

If volume or dynamics seem a bit short in your setup, just step up to the 53 db setting on your PS-1. With that much gain available, I can't imagine a system in which the 20X-H + PS-1 would be wimpy sounding.

I am in a good sized room and with the Dyna 20X-H I never go above 12 noon on my volume control, and I typically listen at about 9 or 10 o'clock. My setup is: speakers 91db, 15 db gain in line stage, 40 db gain in phono section, 1.4 volts amp input sensitivity.

With 53 db available in your phono stage, I would say maybe you can go as low as .5mV on the cartridge output. But again, depending on other gain / sensitivity parameters in your system you might be right on the edge. Or if you have an especially sensitive system, maybe you can go even lower. But in general, most systems need 60 to 62 db of total phono stage gain to properly drive cartridges below .5mV.

Since your PS-1 gives so much flexibility, I can confidently say that you are very safe in the 1.0 to 4.0 mV cartridge output range with most system profiles, even inefficient ones.

Thank you and Browntrout for your replies. Very helpful. I imagined that I would have to stay above .5mv.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Sep 2009, 03:06 am »

I'm using a Dynavector Karat 17D2MKII on my cardas wired RB250 with Ortofon T-5 transformers. Plenty of gain, speed, dynamics-music.

Go for the rewire, cart and transformers and keep the arm is my vote. aa

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 04:26 pm »

Quote from: Listens2tubes on 17 Sep 2009, 03:06 am

I'm using a Dynavector Karat 17D2MKII on my cardas wired RB250 with Ortofon T-5 transformers. Plenty of gain, speed, dynamics-music. Go for the rewire, cart and transformers and keep the arm is my vote. aa

Thanks, bro. I may do that, too.

toobluvr · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 05:53 pm »

Or go this route:

Buy Kuzma Stogi Ref on AG $1200
Buy Dynavector 17D3 cartridge 950
Buy Vista ACLE phono stage, MC version 300

Sell Rega 250 ????
Sell Monolithic PS-1 phono stage ????

(my analysis assumes that you are committed to the Dyna cartridge, regardless of whatever other gear you choose)

No offense to anyone and their gear, or to listen2tubes recommendation, but I gotta believe this will just smoke it. No, I have not heard the 250 arm or the Ortofon transformers, but here is my logic.

(1) I own the Stogi Ref. arm. I think it is better than my SME V and Graham 1.5 t/c....two highly pedigreed and well regarded arms in their own right. I don't think too many people will argue that the 250 (regardless of any wiring or other upgrades it may have) beats any of these arms. I doubt it's even close.

Plus, the Stogi is much more flexible in terms of adjustments...specifically VTA and azimuth.....which I don't think are even possible on the stock Rega 250 (apologies if I am mistaken here).

(2) I own the Vista ACLE phono stage. I also own two highly regarded tube phono sections (inside my full function preamps). Not only does the Vista stay with them, depending on system and tastes, some folks might even prefer the Vista. I have heard phono sections in the $1000 to $1500 range that are not as good as the Vista. So have others. I am not alone in my impressions....check the other very positive comments on the Vista board. So no dis on your PS-1, but I gotta believe the Vista will at least hang with it, and I would not be shocked at all if it beat it.

If you go this route you have spent $2450 before selling anything......$450 above your $2k budget. I don't know their used prices, but if you can sell your arm and phono section for at least that much, you are at your budget. And maybe you can reduce your total cost by getting a discount on the cartridge, or even buy it used, excellent condition?

Again, no offense to anyone and their gear preferences. I just believe that the superiority of the Kuzma arm is so great, that it will elevate your setup head and shoulders above anything that maintains the Rega 250 in it.

Lots of different ways to go.

Good luck with whatever you choose.