New toy- Empire 208-- didn't fair well in shipping, need suggestions

ixlr8 · « **on:** 2 Jul 2009, 01:32 pm »

Hi folks,
Well my Empire 208 just arrived, the TT seems to be in good condition,

except the motor seems to have come loose.

I have not made any attempts to repair as I have no clue what I am getting into. Here are some pics of unit. Any suggestions/guidance will be appreciated.

TIA

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 03:09 pm »

That sucks! But it looks a bit better packed than loads of stuff I've received intact over the years. Maybe the box dropped and inertia tore the motor loose?

Don't worry, Wayner will come to your rescue. I just wanted to post first! Good Luck!!

Paul

ixlr8 · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 03:47 pm »

Paul,
It was disappointing to see it was not packaged better. I have to believe that the box was dropped and the motor did just pop loose. The TT was wrapped in bubble wrap and then double boxed which was nice to see. I suspect it is just a matter of loosening the screws for the rubber motor mounts, setting the motor in place, then tightening the screws. I have no idea on how high to set things though, or if something more is needed. I am waiting to hear from Wayner, Doug or other Empire aficionado on how to set this up properly. I can't find my stylus force gauge, haven't used it in 25 years so I don't know why I can't find it.

Ordering one today. I also noticed that the rubber feet are dried and cracking, so I am looking for suggests for replacements. If I spin the platter gently, it spins for a surprising long period. I pulled the platter, shaft is well lubricated and looks clean. The lube on the ball bearing on the bottom looks a little dirty. Other than that, it seems in good/excellent shape. I did find a date of 4/3/61 on the bottom of the platter. Based on the paint on the cartridge mounting screws... I suspect this could be the original cartridge. It also has what looks to be the original plastic cartridge cover. So I am also looking for suggestions for cartridge replacements.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 04:17 pm »

I would be looking into replacing the rubber in the motor mounts,they can't be in any better shape than the feet after 25 years. The rumble should be lower as well with new motor mounts.
Scotty

Berndt · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 02:54 pm »

buy new motormount grommets from atma-sphere, they have the best price.
Install flange side down, otw the motor will rub the plinth.
Also buy a new belt from turntable basics, fwiw.

Berndt · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 02:58 pm »

I also have tried different viscosity lubricants on the empire spindle and STP has been the most neutral sounding, IMHO
The earlier empire 208's had a gold motor and a non serviceable teflon button in the thrust of the spindle bearing.
I just worked on a newer 208 that had a silver grey motor like a 498 and the spindle bearing was not glued together also like later empires.
I have a standard plinth drilled for a rega if you want to try it out.
Regards, Bill

doug s. · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 03:17 pm »

that looks like a beauty!

i bet you could re-use the grommets that came w/the deck, if you yust reinstall them. but, i also agree that replacing them is a good idea. i have no idea what atma-sphere charges, but you can get them for ~$22-$25 on ebay all the time:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150352922619

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230305894483

doug s.

ixlr8 · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Jul 2009, 01:40 pm »

The more I look at this deck the better it looks, it was obviously well taken care of. I can't believe a deck built in 1961 is still in this good of shape and how smoothly the platter turns. When I pulled the platter off to check the shaft and bearing, they looked new. Only sign of use was that the grease around the ball bearing was a little dark. The lubricant on the shaft was plentiful and clear. When I put the platter back on the deck, it went about half way in and just hung there on the air trapped in the shaft. To get it to go down, without pushing, I had to spin the platter. I thought that was a good sign. The only thing that might not be original is signal leads. There is a terminal strip underneath that two signal leads are soldered to, they are not marked which is Right or Left. Not sure how much I care, eventually I will need to trace out the wires and get it correct and labeled. I was under the impression that Empire had a cable with a special connector that was no longer available anywhere. This deck certainly has no special connectors. I managed to free up the motor, it was jammed in that position very securely. I then removed the brass knurled nut and pulled off the mount and figured out how it was suppose to go. I then removed the other mounts as well. I was surprised that less than 3 threads of the screw engaged in the motor mount. The screws seemed stuck to the mounts, there are spacers on the screws below the mounts that might be screwed on holding the mount to the screw. I will worry about it after I get new mounts. I don't have a manual for the TT, although I found one online for the 298 Troubadour (sp), I figured it was close enough. I remounted the motor, set the tracking force to 0 and leveled the tone arm with the balance weight. I then set the tracking force to 1.5, I don't know if that is correct but I thought it was a good place to start. I put the belt on, let the motor run for a few minutes and then adjusted it so the belt was running in the middle of the motor pulley. I am presently listening to a Deutsche Grammophon recording of Dvorak Overtures, it has been well taken care of and sounds great.

There is a little 'rumble' from the motor, suspect I will need to find a way to lubricate that before too long. But I don't hear the rumble in the output so I am not in a hurry to pull the motor out. I also need to figure out some sort of anti-skating device as there doesn't seem to be anything along those lines with this arm. Any recommendations for a replacement cartridge? I think this is the original. I am going to put my budget for a new cartridge at less than $200.00. I paid less than $400.00 for the deck so I don't want to get to extravigant with the cart. I am also considering saving up and replacing the arm somewhere down the road. Any recommendations for new 'feet' for this thing, the present one's are rubber which are dried out and cracking... not doing much good I suspect.

TIA

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Jul 2009, 09:06 pm »

Doug s.,

Can you show him a picture of how the grommets are suppose to look when installed, so he doesn't get them upside down or something?

It looks like the motor and grommets just popped out of the 3 holes. Put the gromments back in, and reinstall the screws back into the motor top.

Great deck!

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Jul 2009, 09:24 pm »

Pictures took forever to come up. I see you probably can figure out how the grommets went in.

I've looked for replacement lamps for the illuminated switch, but didn't find any. Doug, do you know where to source those?

The tonearm cable doesn't look stock either, tho that probably isn't a big deal. There is a Empire exclusive 5 pin connector for the interconnects. That would be interesting to see what was done with that. So anyway, it looks like the table has been slightly modded.

I use Slick 50 for the platter bearing on my 598 mK II. I highly recommend it and it is avalible almost everywhere. Mobil One synthetic oil is also very good. Clean the bearing out real good. I also see lots of shit on the platter rim from the belt. Get that shit cleaned off there too. Don't trust the dial in weight on the arm. Set it to zero and use a scale, adjusting the position of the counterweight to set your desired tracking. Also don't use that stupid record brush. It'll just slow the table down. The pins on the cartridge head need to have some Caig Deoxit sprayed on them and even use a pensil erasure to remove the oxide. This table is close to 50 years old so it needs some attention before you just start playing some records.

Wayner

Wayner.

ixlr8 · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Jul 2009, 09:37 pm »

Wayner,
I reinstalled them the same way they were mounted on the motor. I couldn't get the gromets off the screws, so there was only one way for them to go.... unless they have been backwards for years. The metal flange on the mount was against the screw head. There is a spacer under the gromet, I suspect it is threaded and is holding the gromet in place. The light in the illumiated switch still works, dim but it works. I do think this table spent some time in the presence of a smoker... so I have begun a gentle cleaning process. I couldn't figure out how to make that cleaning brush work... so I don't use it. I know this table needs a bit of work to get it perform properly... that is why I am here asking for folks help, suggestions and guidance to get it right.
What do you mean by the tone arm cable? Are you referring to the leads that go to the pre-amp? I though they might not be stock, but Doug thought that some tables were made that way. I will get some pictures of the bottom side of the deck when I get home Wednesday.

doug s. · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 01:46 am »

do a search on "empire turntable bulb" on ebay, and you will find bulbs for both the older and newer decks.

wayner, some of the older empires had a terminal strip w/the arm 7 rca's wired to it instead of the unique-to-empire connector...

doug s.

Berndt · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 01:23 pm »

I have some extra bulbs from empire projects, pm me your address.

Regards, Bill

chosenhandle · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 01:30 pm »

Tim at turntablebasics.com used to have bulbs. Not sure anymore, it has been years since I looked into it.

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 03:52 pm »

I have the 6 watt double contact bayonet lamps (120v) for the Empire 598s if anyone needs one. I maybe have one or two to spare. These are common lamps, however, not the same lamp used in the earlier Empires with the illuminated push-button on/off switch.

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 12:57 am »

i've got a 208.
runs a little fast.
there was no belt on it when i got it so i got a cheap one from somewhere. i've since read that the wrong belt will make it run at the wrong speed. i got a belt from LPgear but i'm awaiting the arrival. hopefully that will get the speed a little closer to where it should be.

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 11:41 am »

The belt doesn't really affect speed. That comes from motor pulley diameter to drive rim diameter. If the motor runs fast, the platter runs fast. If the belt is the wrong size (too tight) it will pull the motor assembly towards the platter and that may slightly increase the speed but will more then likely not ride on the proper pulley section (there are 3) to get the right speed. If the belt is too big, it will grab and release and cause "wow" on the speed, or simply fall off all the time. The LPGEAR belt will work.

Wayner

Berndt · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 04:45 pm »

I have tried different belts and I've had some of them sound "off".
For me the ttbasics belt sounds fine.
If I run lighter weight oil in the platter spindle the sound can get funky too.
My results are with a thicker aluminum plinth and heavier base, not a stock set up fwiw.
Don't give up there is magic in these old babies!
Regards, Bill

Wayner · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 06:34 pm »

And Bill, what is your favorite lube? aa

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 07:03 pm »

well the belt came today. put it on and it's still fast. about 3% fast and i can't adjust it out...
i have some 15w40 motor oil in it. of course it never gets hot so it's really just a 15weight oil in there. perhaps i'll try some straight 40w or something...