New toy- Empire 208-- didn't fair well in shipping, need suggestions

Berndt · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 07:50 pm »

I've been using either STP, or teflon grease.
The clearance in the empire bearing/bushing is rather large, at least all of them that I have measured.
hence the heavier viscosity
albiet I also play heavy music...

Wayner · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 09:04 pm »

I've been using Slick 50 and have had great results. Frank also recommends Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. Empire recommends 3 in 1 sewing machine oil, but I feel it is too light, and I'm sure my 598's bearing is worn abit. It run's almost dead on and steady.

jmpiwonka, You do have a weird problem. I do like your idea of a higher viscosity, and I'm wondering if there is some build up of crud on your motor pulley? That would make the diameter larger and hense, run faster. Unforturnately, the 208 and 598 have different diameter pulley (and motor speeds, I think), so that wouldn't work to swap parts. The diameter of my 33 1/3 pulley is about .17 inches. I have an inner drive plater that is 10.25", but yours is driven from the outside, 12" plus or minus and thus the difference in pulleys. That put's my RPM on the motor at rufly 2010 RPM. Don't know if Empire figured anything in for drag and other stuff.

Wayner

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Jul 2009, 11:07 pm »

not really any buildup of crud on the pulley. just a little tarnished.

Bernt, what type of stp do you use? is it the engine oil additive? that stuff is pretty dang thick.

Berndt · « **Reply #23 on:** 19 Jul 2009, 01:14 am »

Regular stp oil treatment
All the empires I've measured have .002"~.003" clearance on the spindle bush.
I've tried thinner oil but the bass gets wooly sounding.

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #24 on:** 19 Jul 2009, 11:20 pm »

well i tried a little different oils. first was gear oil. didn't seem to help much. so i took the dremel and cleaned/polished the pulley off real well and added a little dab of some grease to the shaft on the platter.
now it's about 2.5-3% fast, does sound closer.
i'm judging by starting the record and a cd together and counting how much longer the cd takes to finish on a song.

i have some clear packing tape i could add to the platter. if that works maybe i could just a spray a coat or two of clear lacquer on the platter.

chosenhandle · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 Jul 2009, 01:28 pm »

synch'ing with a CD worked well for me. You can also use a stopwatch and time the platter, but that is more tedious (and made me dizzy).

I have not heard of a 208 not able to maintain proper speed when properly installed and with a proper belt. The simple screw adjustment always seems to work well.

Wayner · « **Reply #26 on:** 21 Jul 2009, 01:09 pm »

Wait a minute, so you haven't checked the turntable speed with a strobe disc? How do you know your CD player isn't playing fast?

IMHO, that is not the right way to check your tables speed, what did you do to check the CD player's speed?

The strobe disc is the only way to check table speed.

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 Jul 2009, 01:35 am »

my cd player would have to be slow, i've checked the table against two different cd player.
the table is faster.
well, i put the turntable basics belt back on, so basically only change is different oil and it's just a bit faster than the cd player.

there are two different belt thicknesses. .023" and .025" the turntable basics belt is thinner. the lpgear belt must be the thicker one.

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Jul 2009, 07:46 pm »

but then again the cd's could be mastered at slower speed.

i just ordered a strobe light and disc so i can get it right...

Wayner · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 Jul 2009, 09:17 pm »

Ok, good. I didn't know you checked it with 2 differet CD players. So that really proves the table is running fast. I'll pause and think about the belt thickness thing for a minute. Off hand, I'd say your table only sees the inside surface of the belt, so I can't think why the 2 different thicknesses would come into play, except for stretching, which would make the deck slower, not faster.

How about put a twist in the belt between the pulley and the platter. I think that Doug s. does this. That might make the motor work a hair harder and slow it down to the correct speed, tho your problem is not the worst in the world. Is the speed steady, then life is good. Unless you have perfect pitch.

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #30 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 12:28 pm »

yeah i've checked only one cd on two different players so that cd could be mastered a little slow or something, tried a few cd's on my newer cd player.
well, a strobe will help me figure out for sure.

the thickness comes into play because the ratios of the platter and pulley change with the thickness of the belt according to a thread i read on audioasylum i think it was.

the twist in the belt...i'm gonna try that.
the speed is steady.

Wayner · « **Reply #31 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 12:54 pm »

"the thickness comes into play because the ratios of the platter and pulley change with the thickness of the belt according to a thread i read on audioasylum i think it was."

No it doesn't. It's the inside surface of the belt that contacts the pulley and the platter, so the thickness is irrelavent (to a point) in this regard. A thicker belt may cause the durometer of the belt to become greater (making the belt less plyable), and that could have an effect, but ever so small.

Wayner

BobM · « **Reply #32 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 01:29 pm »

If the capstan on the motor is a "V" then the thickness of the belt has a direct relationship to the speed of the platter because it sits differently in the groove. If you're talking about a flat capstan then this is probably irrelevant because, as you state the inner part of the belt remains consistent so the diameter shouldn't change (in theory). I would still suggest checking it with a strobe disk.

Bob

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 01:32 pm »

Wayne,

Good observation. The inside circumference of the belt remains constant regardless of thickness.

Nels

Wayner · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 03:59 pm »

Thanks Nels. I've built several turntables (not making me an expert), but I think I have a handle on a few things. jmpiwonka has a weird problem and i can't figure out how to help him out. Almost never do you hear of a table running too fast. Your starting capacitor is old, too, but really is there to get the table started, it supplies the kick in the seat.

Bob, the Empires have a flat drive pulley, but you would be correct if it had a pulley and round belt, like a VPI. If the round belt were a different diameter, it would ride in a differect position on the pulley, changing the distance of belt consumed by a revolution.

Have a good one

Wayner

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #35 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 12:07 am »

Quote from: Wayner on 23 Jul 2009, 12:54 pm

"the thickness comes into play because the ratios of the platter and pulley change with the thickness of the belt according to a thread i read on audioasylum i think it was."

No it doesn't. It's the inside surface of the belt that contacts the pulley and the platter, so the thickness is irrelavent (to a point) in this regard. A thicker belt may cause the durometer of the belt to become greater (making the belt less plyable), and that could have an effect, but ever so small.

Wayner

yeah i thought (maybe still think) the same thing but i was stating the thickness of the belt changing speed in reference to this thread...
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=606862&highlight=empire+running+fast

i was hoping that the elex belt would help but it's thicker than the one i had previously, the original thread starter in that one i linked stated the elex belt was thinner than the one he had...who knows.
the elex (lpgear) belt was still fast but it is a little tighter so it grabs the drive pulley better, so no slippage when i dust the disc with my brush...

i just did my sync up cd to 208 with another album and it was about 2% fast.
i need that dang strobe! i don't think i trust these cds because the variance is not consistent except that the table is always some amount faster. oh well, i gotta go load my double bass up and go play some music.

Berndt · « **Reply #36 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 12:46 am »

Fwiw, I thought the cap on the empire was used to simulate a 3rd pole for the 3 phase motor?
Can you check the Hz of your power to make sure you are getting a 60hz signal?
I have an old empire matt that has the marks on it to use a florescent light source to check the speed.
Good luck with the enigma.
regards, Bill

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #37 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 03:21 am »

i'm not sure how to check the frequency of my line. a power strip wouldn't mess with the frequency would it?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #38 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 05:29 am »

I donjmpiwonka,Here is a link to some strobe equipment. The shipping looks very reasonable. http://www.keystrobe.com/Keystrobe/Buy.html
You might be able to spend less on these products from the UK even with shipping than if you purchased the equivalent KAB product.
Scotty

jmpiwonka · « **Reply #39 on:** 26 Jul 2009, 05:52 pm »

got the strobe and the table is a bit fast. the lines slowly move clockwise.