[turkey]

Most preamps don't have tonal control, the less circuitry in the signal path the purer the signal. Just ask Nuance he is using a preamp in just this way.

The quality of the circuitry is more important than the quantity.

I have heard some very complex electronics that sounded superb, and I've heard very simple circuits that sounded like garbage.

The mixing consoles used for decades in recording studios are much more complex than the typical home stereo, but they don't harm the signal.

Normally when someone tries to sell you their "pure and simple" preamp without a lot of features, it's so they can make extra profit. (They often charge more for a stripped down piece than others do for a full-featured one.) Or perhaps they're just not capable of designing anything but the simplest circuits?

A lot of these things with the "bypass" setting just bypass the live level gain stage, so the signal comes right off the volume pot. That's what most "passive" preamps are too. They're almost guaranteed to sound different, but different isn't always better.

But hey, if you like more distortion, have at it. Bon appetit.

[earthbound]

How do you know the twang is supposed to be that noticeable? Maybe the Salks are doing a better job after all!

[Rocket]

Hi Jared,

I have a ht2 non tl version at home (btw I had to wait a bit over 4 months due to shipping to Australia) and this is my second speaker that uses a ribbon tweeter.  The first had a raven 1 ribbon tweeter with focal mid/bass drivers in mtm configuration.

With high quality speakers like you have 'garbage in garbage out' can occur.  My experience is that if you use lesser components with high quality speakers like the ht2's is that they mask the true potential of the speaker.

If you have a few dollars spare I suggest that you try a virtue one or two and use this as an amplifier.  Their products are getting rave reviews and should have enough to power your ht2's (btw I used a 22 watt amplifier with great results).  Then borrow a good quality cd player and dac combination and hear the true potential of your speakers.

Do yourself a favour and don't take your speakers to your friends house.  It will break your heart if you damage then.

I hope this helps.

Btw heaps of good bargains on audiogon.

Regards

Rod

[oneinthepipe]

I can't understate the benefit of a good DAC...

Overstate fits better in that context, no?
Or underestimate the benefit?

I overestimated my ability to communicate in an efficacious manner.    Either of your suggestions would be a dramastic improvement.    

[turkey]

Do yourself a favour and don't take your speakers to your friends house.  It will break your heart if you damage then.

I agree. You could wind up damaging the finish (or worse) on your speakers. Then you'd either have to live with it, or send the speakers in to be repaired and live without them for a while.

Maybe you can get someone to come over with their gear to check out your speakers. It's pretty easy to wrap an amp in a blanket or something and keep it perfectly safe while transporting it.

I recommended spending some time at local audio dealers because it is a relatively quick way of listening to a good selection of equipment, and it will (theoretically anyway) be setup properly.

I would also suggest that you find some other music that pleases you and incorporate that in your listening tests. It's good to have some variety. I would especially recommend some classical music; perhaps one of the many good recordings from Telarc?

I always use this one amongst others: http://www.concordmusicgroup.com/albums/Gershwin-Rhapsody-In-Blue-An-American-In-Paris/

I've owned a copy for a couple of decades now, and I'm quite familiar with how the recording sounds on various systems.

A lot of people don't like classical music. That's perfectly fine. However, I've found that almost everyone can actually find things they like in classical music if they give it a chance.

Here's a list of some music that I would say has a bit more of a beat going on, and is perhaps more lively than some other classical music. I haven't heard everything on the list, but the rest fits in pretty well.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue35/classical_music.htm

I actually agree with nothing that this particular reviewer says about audio equipment. She's got a pretty good list of "pop" classical music though.

[K Shep]

turkey,
I agree with you...the higher quality the parts in a piece of gear the higher quality the end result. I was giving Jared my opinion of how he may be able to build his system with the equipment he owns. As you suggested get a "good feel for different stereo equipment".

[Nuance]

At what point in the track is the "twang" (what's the time mark)?

For the record, I've taken my speakers over to plenty of people's houses, and they weren't damaged when I got them home.  Just be sensible and very careful.    I've also made a few sales for Salk by doing this...anything I can do to help out a great company. 

[cujobob]

Noise floor, room acoustics smearing the presentation, etc.

[richidoo]

Jeez, I'm so sorry for missing this thread, Jared. I kept looking at it all week, but just didn't click for me so I skipped it. I guess I should look at the authors too. I'll follow it now. Thanks to lonewolfny42 for bopping me on the head today. He really is the mayor of AC, he sees all....

That sound you are referring to was a high water mark for me too. I own the speakers and speaker wires. Everything else playing at that moment was brought by the guys. It was a DAC comparison, so Oracle, Northstar PSAudio and Cullen DL3s were playing through the Oracle as preamp, driving Mac MC402 via JPS balanced ICs, digital and speaker cables. Black Sand and JPS power cables. The whole system retail value was well over 50k, so it should sound pretty good! And it did, really good, to everybody who was listening. Everybody learned something hearing their part mixed into a super system. Few people have a system that good all to themselves. But we can dream, and we can hear it every other month at a meet. That's fun for me..

We have some very experienced audiophiles here in NC. I learn more at a G2G about my system, strengths and weaknesses than months of reading and tweaking on my own. I usually come away wanting to make big changes, but that's impossible, slow and steady is better.

Some of the difference you noticed compared to the Salks is resolution, but also scale. Ushers are big speakers, with 2 carbon 11" bass reflex drivers in bass reflex on each side. They make small ensembles sound realistic scale, and big music like rock and symphony can be overwhelming if the rest of the system is up to the challenge. It takes a combination of electronics and speakers to make big sound but you just can't get there without the large drivers. Good bass drivers are expensive and require lots of power and big pretty cabinets. The system becomes more complex overall to accomodate the larger drivers.

PM me your address so I can send you the album details   It is kinda forward, but a good test record for resolution and taming brightness. It's close miked steel guitar and very twangy.

Your speakers are always welcome. I know everyone would love to hear Salks in person. I've only ever heard them at RMAF.  But wrap them up carefully to avoid dings. Seeya
Rich

[jbtrio]

Jared,
 More then likely it is your electronics. Your HT-2tl's are resolving enough to hear that twang.

 Everytime I change cables,electronics and so forth my HT-3's easily here the differences.
Don't worry buddy your Salks aren't outclassed even with equipment costing much,much,more.

Enjoy,
Joe

[rahimlee54]

Rich thanks for the clarification.  I just am trying to make a little heads and tails about what all I am in need of, a whole system upgrade but like you said slow and steady for me, especially with the misses trying to get housing items.

Joe,

I wasn't really getting at that, I was just curious as to whether it was a driver config difference or mostly my system, or a combination.


I am still very pleased with what I got and wont be changing anytime soon, just still in the learning and evolving process, like everyone I guess.

Jared

[turkey]

Some of the difference you noticed compared to the Salks is resolution, but also scale. Ushers are big speakers, with 2 carbon 11" bass reflex drivers in bass reflex on each side. They make small ensembles sound realistic scale, and big

Do these have the Bogusium tweeters?

[JoshK]

What could be happening is compression in your friend's electronic equipment.  This is like an automatic gain control to make everything sound more the same level.  It adds a "fullness" to the sound that sells a lot of equipment.

Bob

I wouldn't doubt it.  I think there are a number of these small distortions that audiophiles have become accustomed to expect.  I mean its more detail right, so its right? 

[adydula]

Jared,

I have been off the 'air' so to speak for several weeks and have been catching up. I just read thru this post and just listened to the twangy guitar of Niles and it was twangy to me. I didnt even let the system warm up for a few hours, just turned it all on after a few weeks of just sitting there....

First impression is dang these speakers are really good, and still sound really good, I played the Keith Dont Go cut twice and thought the sound was really rich and full on the strong forceful guitar plucks...I thought it was almost a little to 'brittle' but this is usually toned down after letting the electronics warm up a bit.

I played thru the Onkyo 805 dacs and then thru the new Oppo BD83...both sound excellent.

What kind of connections/ speaker wire are you using? Are the connects really tight and well fastened?

I think you speakers can reproduce almost anything out there with excellent tonal accuracy. If these other speakers are sounding 'better' or different you can try a few things ....to help rule out some stuff, move the speakers to an adjacent awall temporarily to see if the room geometry is affecting the sound or enhancing it etc

Try using a different CD player / deck and see if this changes the amont or degree of twang?

You could go to a high end audio store like Audio Advice  in Raleigh and they sometimes will let you try out an amp or receiver to audition.

If this really is an issue with you I would take your speaker over to this guys house and try them with his, cables, dac, electronics etc...then you will really know.....just be careful transproting...Nuance seems to do this "a;;' the time. OR get him to bring his electronics to your place!!!

ALl the best
Alex

[charmerci]

It's most definitely not the speakers.

[doug s.]

Rich thanks for the clarification.  I just am trying to make a little heads and tails about what all I am in need of, a whole system upgrade but like you said slow and steady for me, especially with the misses trying to get housing items.

Joe,

I wasn't really getting at that, I was just curious as to whether it was a driver config difference or mostly my system, or a combination.


I am still very pleased with what I got and wont be changing anytime soon, just still in the learning and evolving process, like everyone I guess.

Jared

i will be the odd man out, here, and suggest it is the difference in the speakers, not a system difference.  i strongly recommend you take your speakers to that system and see (hear) for yourself.

even tho i have never heard either of these speakers, i believe this, because of a similar experience i had a few years ago, when auditioning gr research criterions and diluceo's in my own rig, when they were being sent around on demo.  the gr research speakers were mighty nice, w/ribbon tweets and eton midwoofs (the diluceo's had an extre midwoof - mtm configuration, compared to the criterion's single midwoof.)  but, i heard a similar loss of detail with both pairs, compared to the meret re speakers.  the meret's also have a similar eton midwoof, but 7", instead of 5.5"; they have an inwerted focal titnium doome tweet...  much as i liked the gr research speakers - especially the diluceo's - i preferred the meret's overall presentation, mostly due to the better detail offered.

old thread on the criterions:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=1969.msg15778#msg15778
my impressions of the diluceo's reduced detail remained the same as with the criterions...

ymmv,

doug s.

[DMurphy]

It really would help to have the time mark for that "twang" thang.  Having tried the Don't Go cut on a bajillion different speakers, both Salk and from the dark side, I'm having trouble thinking that you're going to hear twang on one and not twang on another, or even a noticeable difference, assuming the speakers are competent to begin with.  The guitar overtone structure is actually fairly simple compared to, say, the French Horn.  I would expect to hear some differences in midrange clarity and neutrality, weight, and attack, but if the instrument takes on a twangy character at some point, I think you would pick up on it over a wide range of electronics and speakers. 

[richidoo]

Timestamp is 3:30 - 3:50 and again at the end.  It's not a specific moment, it's the whole track, the sound of the guitar when he leans into it. Steely metal string, metal pick twang. It's just a detail/resolution thing. The Oracle DAC is a detail monster like the Ushers. The Mac amp saved it from being too much, and fattened the tone up too.

It's good to have a collection of tracks like that so when you test new components, you can guage whether the new part is taking you closer or farther from some memorable performance.

[rahimlee54]

I think calling it a twang is a bit off, it is more like a sparkle, an overtone.  Around the area Rich mentioned.

[Nuance]

If you like what you heard, you may want to consider and audition a preamp with HT bypass. This will allow you to utilize your AVR (as an amp) and experience the benefit of a preamp. Most preamps don't have tonal control, the less circuitry in the signal path the purer the signal. Just ask Nuance he is using a preamp in just this way.

Agreed.  I am very happy I went that route.