Must have more power. Cranking up the juice!

virtue · « **on:** 15 Jun 2009, 04:43 am »

We have consensus here that the Virtue amps sound better the more power they are given. Has anyone tried larger supplies (< 32v) that you would recommend to other customers? We chose to use switching regulated supplies but they get mighty expensive as you move beyond devices that have alternative uses in mass-market products. Has anyone tried traditional transformers or toroidal supplies? What have you found?

gitarretyp · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 06:10 am »

I'm using one of these 24V/150W supplies (datasheet) with a Virtue 2. I found it to be an upgrade over the 30V/90W supply and is pretty tough to beat for the price.

I have parts to try a battery supply coming sometime this week and will report on that when I get a chance.

virtue · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 06:13 am »

$14.95 - you must be joking

Great find. A huge win for customers if you can buy them fast enough and don't mind welding your screw-driver to the enclosure if things go awry.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 06:17 am »

I can't take credit for finding it. Some guys over on diyAudio are using them as supplies in gainclones. If you google the model number, Cosel PBA150F-24-N, these supplies really do sell for $100+ at other stores.

1000a · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 10:19 pm »

Quote from: gitarretyp on 15 Jun 2009, 06:10 am

I'm using one of these 24V/150W supplies (datasheet) with a Virtue 2. I found it to be an upgrade over the 30V/90W supply and is pretty tough to beat for the price.

I have parts to try a battery supply coming sometime this week and will report on that when I get a chance.

very interested in your feedback on the battery set up.

if it is not to much trouble could you show a pic or 2 and explain how to hook up that power supply to the V1 or V2- consider your listener completely stupid, I do best with visuals. I see the screws and no IEC connector how do I do it? Thanks a mill.

I saw there is a filter for the PS (made by the same company) did you incorporate that into the hook up?

Seth although you do sell the basic PSs could you give us some guidelines of what to hunt for in specs (the best) possible is it 30volt max, 20amp (the higher the better), 200watt (w a fan a no no) and so on?

I did find some transformers but unsure what one to get if I were to build a PS

virtue · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 10:25 pm »

You can start with the top-tier PSU vendors like SkyNet, MePos, and others who won't let you down. In the world of no-names, it's treacherous. We disqualified 90% of the supplies we considered because they were too loud. If you really want to get a handle on the semi-audible harmonics of a power supply, you can use a harness that Michael designed.

Here are some of his observations from the 200w PSU we were testing from Power Win..

1) Under load there is a regular "pumping" of the noise. I have not seen this in any other supply. Tis also can be seen on an oscilloscope trace.

2) At idle (no load) the supply produces a high pitch whine in the speaker. Similar to a siren, but at a constant pitch. This changes briefly every time the supply cycles (~9 seconds).

3) Under load the supply produces a "chuffing" noise - like "chut-chut-chut". If you know the sound of an impulse sprinkler, that is the sound. This sound is the same at most load levels.

Please goad the panomaniac to reply if you want more info...

virtue · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 10:35 pm »

I ordered one of those 24v/150w supplies to test... I'm always interested when customers say the amp can sound as good or better at 24v than at 30v. Red Wine is a 24v product and the batteries that Danny is selling are 24v. Basically, I'm hearing that 24v is sufficient....

That being said, we've put a ton of effort into the next PCB making sure it doesn't blow up at higher voltages so that this little platform can (eventually) become a 160+wpc capable product (requires major heatsinking). At 24v, perhaps 150w is the optimal. At 30v, it's closer to 200w. Llook at the DDX2200 datasheet - 30% more current between 24v and 30v...

panomaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 10:54 pm »

Just be a little careful with the circuit posted above. The 100R variable resistor needs to be a high watt type or it will burn up. And you should probably charge up the cap before you connect the speaker, or you get a very loud thump!

But it does let you hear the noise of the PSU directly. They are NOT all silent.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 11:01 pm »

Quote from: 1000a on 16 Jun 2009, 10:19 pm

very interested in your feedback on the battery set up.

if it is not to much trouble could you show a pic or 2 and explain how to hook up that power supply to the V1 or V2- consider your listener completely stupid, I do best with visuals. I see the screws and no IEC connector how do I do it? Thanks a mill.

I saw there is a filter for the PS (made by the same company) did you incorporate that into the hook up?

Seth although you do sell the basic PSs could you give us some guidelines of what to hunt for in specs (the best) possible is it 30volt max, 20amp (the higher the better), 200watt (w a fan a no no) and so on?

I did find some transformers but unsure what one to get if I were to build a PS

Initial opinion of the battery supply is that it is an improvement over the either SMPS, but I haven't done any head-to-head, in depth comparisons. Overall, I agree with most of Danny's comments except with more moderation. I would not say it's a lot better, but it seems to clean up vocals and the treble and makes the amp more enjoyable to listen to.

The power supply has molex output connectors and is supplied with wiring harnesses. You need to attach a power cable and a DC plug to the wiring harnesses. If you're not comfortable with electronics, then this is best left to someone else.

If you have any intention of using the supply long term, it's best to mount it in an enclosure. I will probably build an enclosure with both the battery supply and the SMPS so I can switch back-and-forth for critical listening and background music/tv.

Regarding noise and other irregularities from the 24V supply, I didn't notice any and it looked good on my scope. User bichi also posted measurements of the supply on diyAudio, but I do look forward to your results from more extensive testing, Seth.

dvenardos · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Jun 2009, 12:17 am »

Well, because with the 30v/130w you aren't getting the higher output advantage of running at 30v because it is underpowered.

Quote from: virtue on 16 Jun 2009, 10:35 pm

I ordered one of those 24v/150w supplies to test... I'm always interested when customers say the amp can sound as good or better at 24v than at 30v. Red Wine is a 24v product and the batteries that Danny is selling are 24v. Basically, I'm hearing that 24v is sufficient....

I am working on a discontinued Condor linear ps that I picked up at a bargain price. I sent an email off to Michael but should probably post here. What size dc plug do you need to use to plug into the dc power jack on the Virtue One/Two? I am looking at 2.5mm.

dweekie · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Jun 2009, 02:05 am »

Quote from: virtue on 16 Jun 2009, 10:35 pm

I ordered one of those 24v/150w supplies to test... I'm always interested when customers say the amp can sound as good or better at 24v than at 30v. Red Wine is a 24v product and the batteries that Danny is selling are 24v. Basically, I'm hearing that 24v is sufficient....

I think it's a little hard to directly compare the voltage of the battery to a standard regulated supply since batteries starts off closer to 27V and slowly drops from there. However, when listening to an amp, I couldn't tell you if the batteries are fully charged or not, so other factors seem far more significant than voltage alone (to my ears).

virtue · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Jun 2009, 03:51 am »

It's a 2.1mm internal, 5.5mm external coaxial jack. We don't love it but we're stuck with it.

dvenardos · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Jun 2009, 05:45 am »

Michael added that the center pin is positive.

Did some research and found that the four pin xlr connector is a standard for 12v dc power. For the power supply side the neutrik chasis mount are rated at 50v with the availability of 10 amp contacts.
http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/audio/204_1548004991/Overview_XLR_Chassis_Series_productlist.aspx

panomaniac · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 12:16 am »

I've used the 4 pin XLR in a lot of pro grear. It works well. But is probably too big for the limited space we have. Every mm counts.....

virtue · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 12:25 am »

We're using a 4 pin din on the next version - just drill the hole and epoxy it in.
The US equivalent would be Mouser: 806-KPJX-4S-S It is rated 7A but can probably do more...

dvenardos · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 02:17 am »

Quote from: virtue on 18 Jun 2009, 12:25 am

We're using a 4 pin din on the next version - just drill the hole and epoxy it in.
The US equivalent would be Mouser: 806-KPJX-4S-S It is rated 7A but can probably do more...

Can you bridge the pins so that you use two for + and two for - to get 14A?

edit: I was just looking at using those last night, but was worried because they are only rated for 20v, does this matter?

Welborne · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 05:06 am »

We're using a 4 pin din on the next version - just drill the hole and epoxy it in.
The US equivalent would be Mouser: 806-KPJX-4S-S It is rated 7A but can probably do more...

---------------
Hi Seth, Virtue one or Two would have a new version? or are you talking about the Sensation?

I have a Two from Michael Mardis. I am using the standard 30v ps. I am considering upgrading to the higher power option. What change in sound would I expect from this move?

virtue · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 02:15 pm »

The 30v/130w supply is much richer all around. When I've seen the prototypes and they plug in and don't blow up, I will tell the forum all about the new models.

Cheerwino · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 02:34 pm »

I have the 30v/130w power supply on my Virtue One and the difference is quite striking. It is more than worth the $150 upgrade.

I agree with Seth that it is 'richer' sounding. Just better, more detailed, fuller at lower volumes and more satisfying at higher volumes. I can't imagine anyone being disappointed in it if they are moving up from one of the lower powered supplies. It's like getting a new amp, really. aa

1000a · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: virtue on 16 Jun 2009, 10:25 pm

You can start with the top-tier PSU vendors like SkyNet, MePos, and others who won't let you down. In the world of no-names, it's treacherous. We disqualified 90% of the supplies...........

Thanks Seth for the super fast reply

Quote from: gitarretyp on 16 Jun 2009, 11:01 pm

Quote from: 1000a on 16 Jun 2009, 10:19 pm
Initial opinion of the battery supply is that it is an improvement over the either SMPS, but I haven't done any head-to-head, in depth comparisons. Overall, I agree with most of Danny's comments except with more moderation. I would not say it's a lot better, but it seems to clean up vocals and the treble and makes the amp more enjoyable to listen to.

The power supply has molex output connectors and is supplied with wiring harnesses. You need to attach a power cable and a DC plug to the wiring harnesses. If you're not comfortable with electronics, then this is best left to someone else.

If you have any intention of using the supply long term, it's best to mount it in an enclosure. I will probably build an enclosure with both the battery supply and the SMPS so I can switch back-and-forth for critical listening and background music/tv.

Regarding noise and other irregularities from the 24V supply, I didn't notice any and it looked good on my scope. User bichi also posted measurements of the supply on diyAudio, but I do look forward to your results from more extensive testing, Seth.

Thanks gitarretyp for your super fast reply.

Guys, both replies were helpful to me. Thanks 1000a