Decoupling the modules: who's tried something different?

Delacroix · « **on:** 2 Jun 2009, 05:56 pm »

Back in the early posts before we became our own forum here on AC, there was passing mention of tweaks involving decoupling the bass and M/T modules on relevant VSA models. Mine came with screw in hard feet that connect to the M/T module and fit the holes in the top of the bass module. I also received a set of smaller hard squares that I believe Joe told me worked better but were not as popular for aesthetic reasons (though I may have been imagining that part of the conversation).

So, in the last month of so I discovered the power of Aurios media bearings http://aurios.net/ under my amps (yes, they made a real difference) and in a fit of enthusiasm I decided to place a set between each of my speaker modules. For those who know them, you'll realize at least the physical response: these lift components in such a manner that when properly set up, allow the component to wobble about if pushed before settling - a quite unnerving effect for expensive components. I am not convinced it made quite the sonic impact on the speakers that it did on the power amps (Spectron monos) but I will admit I did not want to hear too much benefit because I would not be happy watching the modules move whenever anyone brushed against the speaker. My wife also remarked that it looked as if something was 'wrong' when these were in place since they lift the M/T module up higher than the stock feet.

This is all a long way of saying or asking, just what have others tried here? I remain interested in experiences with the Herbie Big Fat dots (which are even offered in a Von S special package deal for precisely this purpose):http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/bigfat.htm, but there must be other ideas out there as I've seen pics with spikes, vibrapods etc. Interested in others' experiences here, so please share.

foghorn · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 06:50 pm »

Below is a link to the "Enjoy the Music" review of the VR4 SR2 from January 2008.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0108/von_schweikert_vr_4sr_mk2.htm

In the review, the use of Sound Dead Steel Isofeet is discussed.

I have NOT used this method (or any other) to decouple the modules on my VR4 SR 2's.

I just wanted to pass this along as it appears to match your question.

I hope it helps.

Matt

es347 · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 09:12 pm »

I was under the impression that the conical rubber feet provided with the VR4s and VR5s effectively decouple the M/T and bass modules. Nevertheless, I have been playing with the idea of perhaps using the VSA supplied black spikes in conjunction with the "big fat dots"....seems as if Herbie could have come up with a more exotic name

That may lift the tweeter above the 38" level at which the speakers were voiced. Not sure how big a deal that would be. Not sure what if any sonic benefits one could expect from doing this anyway. Delacroix...glad you started this thread.

BTW delacroix...could you describe the before and after with your amps and the media bearings? thx.

McTwins · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 09:37 pm »

I am gonna keep mine as it is, it's voiced and sounds good as it is. Personally I don't think it will improve anything, that's my opinion.
Thanks

Delacroix · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 11:03 pm »

Matt -- thank you - that's a most interesting review and makes a case for at least exploring the module interface. hey McTwins, you surely would keep an open mind on this now until we get some data? I am not convinced it will be a major improvement either but I agree with the reviewer in the article Matt linked, sometimes these little elements in the design are where the money is not spent and a small extra investment by the end-user can yield real benefits.

Gavin, I agree -- what was Herbie thinking when he chose that big fat name

As for the Aurios under the amps -- well, I thought the amps were well isolated anyhow on my Steve Blinn racks with 1" thick maple shelves but once I popped these underneath there was an increase in clarity, particularly in the high and low frequencies, that allowed me to hear small details that I'd previously not noticed. Transients were delivered more crisply and there was a resonance to certain instruments, such as piano, that had not been so obvious without them. Curiously, I don't think they work as well under my preamp or digital front end but I know some people love them under turntables. I can't say if they work as well under other amps but I know other Spectron owners who report similar benefits. I'm not a great believer in expensive footers or tweaks but I bought these on a return-if-not-satisfied basis and ended up keeping them. I still have a problem with the wobble they induce if a component is pushed which is why I don't care for them under the CD player, every time I load a disk the cd player comes out to meet me!

The moral for me is that a good system can be taken further with judicious use of these types of tweaks. Since I am a fan of the VS speaker, I think it is exactly the type of component it's worth investing some time and money in to see how far it can be taken. IF we think footers and the floor interface are important, I'd argue there is a case to be made for the module interface to offer up some real sonic benefits. I feel Herbie is going to be getting his fingers into my not so fat wallet before long......all in the interests of informing my fellow forum members of course.

dhrab · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 01:25 am »

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McTwins · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 07:54 am »

Delacroix.....
No problem, I will keep an open mind on this and wait until further data.

It's an interesting subject.
Thanks

Delacroix · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 08:54 pm »

Order for a Von S special set of Herbie's "Big Fat Dots" placed.....all in the interests of audiophilic science

I'll keep you posted.

es347 · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 11:13 pm »

We await on the edge of our listening seats...with bated breaths...etc.

Delacroix · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 07:00 pm »

I hope nobody is too uncomfortable after sitting on the edge of those listening chairs waiting for me to respond but I have had the Herbie Big Fat Dots (BFDs) in place on my VR5SE for the last five days and swapped them out to listen again with the original feet on the upper modules. Not sure why but in my room and with my system these two coupling approaches really do result in different sounds to my ears. The BFDs are small and look totally inconsequential, not at all as their name suggests, but they change the sonic picture of the Vons, resulting in a noticeably warmer tone with a slightly deeper soundstage which may or may not be to your taste. Certainly the Vons don't look as cool with these in as they do with the original footers which are taller but sonically, I like the results.

I was unconvinced at first that this was an improvement rather than a difference but as I kept listening over the last week I found the BFD combo also revealing details in the mids that were less apparent before. I thought at first this was at the cost of upper treble air but over the last few days I've started to appreciate their impact a little more. Certainly fuller bass articulation but also a fuller mid-range, with slightly more body to most instruments and a clearer articulation of transients. Sax in particular seems more palpable, as does piano, and there seems to be a little greater separation of instrumental lines on some recordings. This is good but I still feel I might be giving up some of the extension at the upper end, such as on cymbal crashes which seem a little more truncated with the BFDs. Going back to the original footers, I think the reproduction of cymbals, for example, seems lighter and airier with the originals but more like a stick or a brush actually connecting with metal on the BFDs, although a little foreshortened perhaps in the resulting decay. This might be a trade off that can be compensated for with rear tweeter adjustment or with placement, I've tried to keep it straightforward here for a quick reaction. In brief, for $80 and full-return privileges for 90 days, these are worth trying if you want to eke out a few adjustments to your VSAs and have the patience to play. As with any tweak, YMMV but once again I am reminded of how any change in my system seems to be heard through the Vons.

I'm intrigued enough by the results (even if I can't explain them) to keep the BFDs here and have contacted Herbie's Labs about doing a review of a full system-set of products (speaker decouplers, spike footers, component isolation feet etc.) for a future edition of A$$Audio. I will say, dealing with Herbie is very pleasant and he provides responses and deliveries in a prompt fashion. I 'warned' him I was doing this check for the VSA circle so he probably won't be surprised to hear from any of you.

Tone Depth · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 07:36 pm »

I've heard that changing the vertical distance between modules, as when using the smaller height feet, can change the phase relationship between the midrange and woofer drivers and the crossover doesn't work as good. Could this be part of what you are hearing?

es347 · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 08:06 pm »

Quote from: Delacroix on 13 Jun 2009, 07:00 pm

I hope nobody is too uncomfortable after sitting on the edge of those listening chairs waiting for me to respond but I have had the Herbie Big Fat Dots (BFDs) in place on my VR5SE for the last five days and swapped them out to listen again with the original feet on the upper modules. Not sure why but in my room and with my system these two coupling approaches really do result in different sounds to my ears. The BFDs are small and look totally inconsequential, not at all as their name suggests, but they change the sonic picture of the Vons, resulting in a noticeably warmer tone with a slightly deeper soundstage which may or may not be to your taste. Certainly the Vons don't look as cool with these in as they do with the original footers which are taller but sonically, I like the results.

I was unconvinced at first that this was an improvement rather than a difference but as I kept listening over the last week I found the BFD combo also revealing details in the mids that were less apparent before. I thought at first this was at the cost of upper treble air but over the last few days I've started to appreciate their impact a little more. Certainly fuller bass articulation but also a fuller mid-range, with slightly more body to most instruments and a clearer articulation of transients. Sax in particular seems more palpable, as does piano, and there seems to be a little greater separation of instrumental lines on some recordings. This is good but I still feel I might be giving up some of the extension at the upper end, such as on cymbal crashes which seem a little more truncated with the BFDs. Going back to the original footers, I think the reproduction of cymbals, for example, seems lighter and airier with the originals but more like a stick or a brush actually connecting with metal on the BFDs, although a little foreshortened perhaps in the resulting decay. This might be a trade off that can be compensated for with rear tweeter adjustment or with placement, I've tried to keep it straightforward here for a quick reaction. In brief, for $80 and full-return privileges for 90 days, these are worth trying if you want to eke out a few adjustments to your VSAs and have the patience to play. As with any tweak, YMMV but once again I am reminded of how any change in my system seems to be heard through the Vons.

I'm intrigued enough by the results (even if I can't explain them) to keep the BFDs here and have contacted Herbie's Labs about doing a review of a full system-set of products (speaker decouplers, spike footers, component isolation feet etc.) for a future edition of A$$Audio. I will say, dealing with Herbie is very pleasant and he provides responses and deliveries in a prompt fashion. I 'warned' him I was doing this check for the VSA circle so he probably won't be surprised to hear from any of you.

BFD means something entirely different where I come from!

underdog64 · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 08:09 pm »

I have a pair of VR4jr Mark2s and decouple the satellites from the bass modules using 3 small DH cones pointed down into 3 DH Squares.Looks good,doesn't move around (important).Can't say I noticed much of an improvement if any over stock though.

mfsoa · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 02:00 am »

Using Herbies kit w/ very good results

-Mike

McTwins · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 11:48 am »

Hi
I'm sceptic.
I have to ask this question.
Has there been done any measurment with and without the Herbies?
I have another product called "Vibb Eaters" you have probably seen it on top on my speakers look like "Mouses". It's says that it will absorb vibration via speaker cabinets and convert to heat. I don't see any changes when I do measurment with and without and also not much differen't in the sound as well

Some people say it's not good putting object on top of the speakers, it disturb the Highfreq. But what do I know.
The only measurment I have seen is The Soundcare Superspikes.
Honesly, the best audioble differn't I have done is the acoustic room treatment. Just my opinion.

Thanks

es347 · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 01:30 pm »

Oh oh...another "tweaks" thread--he says, she says--the battle lines are about to be drawn.

Can't we all just be friends?

McTwins · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 01:42 pm »

Of course we can be friends

I like scientific discussion.
See my gallery I have pictures of my room measurement, you see what problem I have been dealing with.

The red lines is before treatment and the blue after.
Thanks

es347 · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 02:12 pm »

Wow that is one beautiful room. I see what you were saying. It must have been very reflective prior to tuning. Your treatment no doubt worked sonically but it looks great too. Is it my imagination or are your VR4 Sr MKIIs a flat black?

Gavin

McTwins · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 02:15 pm »

What do you mean by Flat Black?

He,He know I understand

It's ebony wood.

Delacroix · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 03:53 pm »

Am also game for more science in our discussions, I've been very critical over the years of much of the claims of the high-end but I don't have any measurement device to provide data on the various improvements wrought by adding Aurios and now the Herbie Dots. Herbie Audio Labs site contains very limited info on the materials science side but they run their own forum for discussions there too so I'll explore a little more to see what I can learn http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

Aurios offer a little more measurement based argument for their product:
http://aurios.net/tech-talk

It's not hard for me to appreciate that vibration control is important but the varieties of products and how they work can often be hard to determine. For me, I've had good results with Vibrapods under CD players, Aurios under amps and now hearable differences with different couplings between the VS modules. As noted in an earlier message, the change in module spacing might account for some of the differences but I am not inclined to think this is entirely the explanation. I also tried Vibrapod cones at one point which increase the gap over the original feet and did not hear a major difference then. Also, the small rubber footers that accompanied my Vons as alternatives to the feet are much thinner and would reduce the space rather like the BFDs do, so it would seem odd if VSA provided such different options if they expected the sonic differences from space alone to be that significant, but let's hear what they say on this matter. Also, I need to dig these out and give them a try for comparison anyhow.

Totally agree that room treatment is likely more important but I've never seen a room treatment I could put in my house that would not induce extra noise in my ear from my significant other! As a social scientist I am quite prepared to believe that many of the differences we 'hear' are self-induced but hey, it's my self that's doing the listening