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I've never heard any of these amps, but speaking as an economist...............I know I could get an amp for 1k or a little over that I would be happy with driving the HT3's. If I really had the option of spending an extra $9000 on something, it would be a better speaker. I can think of one that Jim makes, or will make shortly, but there may be others out there as well.
The Moscode 401 is a worthy example by the way. I've heard people rave about it, and I've heard of others expressing bewilderment that it costs as much as it does. We agree everyone should listen for themselves. (I have never auditioned it.) My opinion is that unless your room is a very good listening environment, many of the subtleties between expensive amplifiers don't amount to a hill of beans.
BrianI've had a $1000 used ampAudio Research D200it didn't do the Salk justice on demanding material - retricted dynamicsI have no itch for an HT4very content with the HT3I bought the Moscode and found out what the Salk's could really do. I also spent significant money on isolation - and yes it is worth it - the image is holographic - the notes are articulated from the background not smeared together and really jump out at youin my own amp evolution - I want to go even farther than the nice warmth dynamics, and clarity of the Moscode. Just the slightest, and I mean slighest grain is present. That's why I just splurged on a BAT VK600. Not the SE, good deal on audiogon. George's input, a nice review comparing it to the WYRED, etc, I knew it would be my amp. I want to make sure I'm getting as much engaging passion out of the music as possibleI respect opinions of guys like George, BigRedM, Doug Deacon, TVAD, Dan Ed, flying red (some audiogon members) and have bought certain equipment without hearing it (including Salk) based on their strong recommendations.Dennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it.
Dennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it.
Brian,We are in total agreement on treating the room and its importance in the audio playback chain.My room is heavily treated and I will never not have a non-treated audio room.George
Quote from: zybar link=topic=67911.msg632402#msg632402Brian,We are in total agreement on treating the room and its importance in the audio playback chain.My room is heavily treated and I will never not have a non-treated audio room.GeorgeI think it's at least as important as the speakers, for real hifi results anyway - both being more important than the rest.
Quote from: audiotom on 26 May 2009, 03:00 pmDennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it. So you're saying that some audiophiles know better than Dennis and Jim in terms of getting the best sound out of a system using speakers they designed?If you don't respect their hearing when it comes to wire, how can you respect their hearing when it comes to speakers?
Quote from: turkey on 26 May 2009, 04:41 pmQuote from: audiotom on 26 May 2009, 03:00 pmDennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it. So you're saying that some audiophiles know better than Dennis and Jim in terms of getting the best sound out of a system using speakers they designed?If you don't respect their hearing when it comes to wire, how can you respect their hearing when it comes to speakers?I wouldn't make too much out of what I said. I'm pretty confident that there's a lot more difference between the HT3 and the HT4 than there is between the HT3 with a solid but not super expensive amp and the HT3 with a $10,000 watt machine. But I'm not saying there isn't any difference between amps. I'm agnostic because (1) I haven't heard all thant many amps with my speakers and (2) I've never been able to do controlled tests between the amps I have heard.
Quote from: turkey on 26 May 2009, 04:41 pmQuote from: audiotom on 26 May 2009, 03:00 pmDennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it. So you're saying that some audiophiles know better than Dennis and Jim in terms of getting the best sound out of a system using speakers they designed?If you don't respect their hearing when it comes to wire, how can you respect their hearing when it comes to speakers?Potentially.It isn't a matter of respect (I respect Jim and Dennis immensely) - it is a matter of choice and circumstances.Jim and Dennis choose certain equipment (whether it is an amp, wire, source, etc...) depending on price, performance, etc... just like the rest of us do. I am also guessing they face many of the same constraints (room, money, significant other, etc...) we all do and that they don't have unlimited funds to throw at audio. If that is the case, I think it would be wrong to assume that they have the ultimate setups and that they are ringing ever last ounce of performance out of their speakers. Heck, when you think about it, you realize it just isn't possible!When you throw into the mix that we all hear differently, have different rooms, and have different likes/dislikes, it becomes even more obvious that the best any vendor can do is pass on recommendations (based on personal findings and user feedback) and try to help their customers. Which is exactly what Jim and Dennis do all the time on the forums, in person, or whatever way we communicate with them.George
If that is the case, I think it would be wrong to assume that they have the ultimate setups and that they are ringing ever last ounce of performance out of their speakers. Heck, when you think about it, you realize it just isn't possible!
Let's get you back up to MA so I can play my systems with different amps (all of which technically match up with the rest of my gear - i.e. no impedance or electrical mismatches) and you can hear the differences (or not).
It seems that you are making an implicit assumption that more expensive gear is better gear.I would argue that audio electronics are not an area where the sound quality limitation is related to cost (or space for that matter).
Quote from: zybar on 26 May 2009, 05:14 pmLet's get you back up to MA so I can play my systems with different amps (all of which technically match up with the rest of my gear - i.e. no impedance or electrical mismatches) and you can hear the differences (or not).So you're setup for double-blind testing with matched levels?
Everything is always impacted by price and space.
Quote from: DMurphy on 26 May 2009, 05:00 pmQuote from: turkey on 26 May 2009, 04:41 pmQuote from: audiotom on 26 May 2009, 03:00 pmDennis and Jim are pragmatic - and couldn't see spending that kind of money, as designers - I understand - they probably think it's overkill and they don't recommend pricey speaker wire that us listeners own. But for those audiophiles who quest for the sound (not the prestige of owning something) and do diligence, it's well worth it. So you're saying that some audiophiles know better than Dennis and Jim in terms of getting the best sound out of a system using speakers they designed?If you don't respect their hearing when it comes to wire, how can you respect their hearing when it comes to speakers?I wouldn't make too much out of what I said. I'm pretty confident that there's a lot more difference between the HT3 and the HT4 than there is between the HT3 with a solid but not super expensive amp and the HT3 with a $10,000 watt machine. But I'm not saying there isn't any difference between amps. I'm agnostic because (1) I haven't heard all thant many amps with my speakers and (2) I've never been able to do controlled tests between the amps I have heard. Dennis,Let's get you back up to MA so I can play my systems with different amps (all of which technically match up with the rest of my gear - i.e. no impedance or electrical mismatches) and you can hear the differences (or not).Plus I would simply just love to hang out with you for an afternoon or evening. George