[Scott F.]

Not to belabor the issue but technically you can't adjust the VTA by the angle of the body (which appears to contradict what I typed previously...I say appears, more later). To get it "right" you need to look at the end of the cantilever where it is pinched to accommodate (and fasten) the diamond stylus. That pinched portion should be parallel to the record surface as your starting point regardless of your arm, headshell or body angle. Even doing it this way, there is a huge margin of error because of the obvious. The best anyone can do is get close then adjust the sound to your ears.

Here is a graphic representation of what I'm trying to say (with my keyboard)



This pic was swiped from an article well worthy of reading if you haven't already. My good friend and ex-cohort Geoff Husband of TNT-Audio wrote this. We discussed it many times during the first drafts before he published it. I completely agree with what he has stated. Its a worthy read for any vinylphile  

Exposing the VTA myth?



....edit for something technically stupid I typed 

[Wayner]

I'm sure most cartridge manufacturer's realize that NO ONE has the ability or technology to look at a cantilever at that level and determine the angle. The thinking is preposterous, at best.

At HTI, the leader at hard-disc drive suspensions, we would hold the final dimension at 4 millionths of an inch. Do you think you can do that? You don't have a clue what tolerances are or what it takes to even make a suspension read a disc-drive, let alone, a cartridge track an lp groove. In fact, you would have to measure the angular displacement of the diamond itself, before the cantilever could ever be considered.

And as mere mortals, how is this the problem anyway?

[Wayner]

By the way, the industry established that angle at 20 degrees along time ago.

W

[Wayner]

Also, by the way kingdeezie, I'm tired of all the aholes. let the rest of them solve your problems.

Sorry man.

[toobluvr]

Also, by the way kingdeezie, I'm tired of all the aholes. let the rest of them solve your problems.

Sorry man.

Arrogant twit!

I guess in your book providing bad information is helpful.

Hey kingdeezie...be thankful he's not "helping" anymore!

 

[Browntrout]

So what do we think the problem might be? Am I right in thinking the coiled up green wire seen in the picture is his ground wire? If so could there be a problem with it being so long or a bad connection there?

[Nels Ferre]

Hi,

I have a couple of thoughts:

1. As others have said, your cartridge will work just fine with the Mapletree pre and 47K loading. I own one (mine now with a ruby cantilever.) That is not your problem unless the tube(s) that amplify your phono section have gone south.

2. VTA/SRA is not your problem. Although the differences in VTA/SRA are audible, it should be a situation of "sounds really good" to "sounds freaking great" when dialed in. It won't be "awful" to "good." An easier way to set VTA with your cartridge if to think of the relationship between the cartridge and LP as an "L" where the bottom leg is the LP and the vertical leg is the front of the cartridge body. (This will work only of the front of the cartridge is truly vertical, like the 20X. It won't work with the 10X, or something like the Shure V15. Anyway, if the front of the cartridge is perfectly perpendicular to the LP it is even. If the front of the body is loaning "left" when viewed from the side (while playing an LP) the cartridge is "tail up." Leaning to the right, then, is "tail down."  Scott prefers "tail down" I prefer "straight up." It is a "taste" thing. In any event, your rig should be more than fine.

3. You need to either remove the cartridge from the arm or put a mirror underneath the cartridge to examine it. I'll bet dollars to donuts your cantilever is tweaked. Either that, or you have made a mistake adjusting tracking force and you are way too light. Either situation ruins records. Check this before worrying about fine adjustments.

Edit 4. Someone else mentioned to make sure the arm is mounted securely. There are a couple of different trains of thought with Rega arms (which is who made yours.) One thought is to tighten the arm finger tight, then snug it down a bit more. Those folks say any tighter squeezes the life out of the music. I hear things differently I guess- I prefer tight as hell. I still think the problem lies with the cartridge. In any event, your arm should be mounted securely (or extremely securely.)

I hope this helps.

Nels

[Mariusz]

nice blue glow around the  cantilever

[twitch54]

Loading the Dynavector 20X-H at 47k is perfectly fine and will result in superb sound,  regardless of what the mfr recommendation is.

While I'm NOT trying to add fuel to the fire in this debate I agree with toobluvr here. I too own a 20x (albeit the medium, 1 millivolt version) and while I have settled on 1k loading I have expirimented with various points from 500 up to 47k. FWIW, Mike (of VPI) recomends 500, whereas dynavector actually recomends 1000 ohms or less.

assuming all the "mechanicals" check out, may I suggest subbing a different phono-pre into the mix ??

[Nels Ferre]

[/quote]
While I'm NOT trying to add fuel to the fire in this debate I agree with toobluvr here. I too own a 20x (albeit the medium, 1 millivolt version) and while I have settled on 1k loading I have expirimented with various points from 500 up to 47k. FWIW, Mike (of VPI) recomends 500, whereas dynavector actually recomends 1000 ohms or less.
[/quote]

You are correct, for your cartridges, which are different internally. The OP has a 20XH (High Output)...this is designed to be loaded at > 1K ohm, Once you go to the XL (.3 mV) or XM (1 mV) that changes everything entirely- the recommended loading is >30 ohms (at least on the XL)...really they are different cartridges altogether.

[*Scotty*]

kingdeezie, it is very hard to offer constructive suggestions concerning your vinyl setup without more descriptions of how it sounds bad to you and why you prefer the sound of your $1000 cd player to your vinyl.  Every potential error in cartridge alignment has a characteristic sound quality associated with it which is why your description of the sound would be helpful. The tools for correctly setting up your turntable are sold by Wally Malewicz of WAM Engineering. See link   http://www.simplyblack.net/WVC/index_wally.html 
The scale he sells is the only one I know of that sets the tracking force at the surface of the record. When you measure the tracking force with a scale that sits on the surface of the record you will typically be setting the tracking force at a point as much as an 1/8 inch above the surface of the record, this results in a substantial error in tracking force at the surface of the record. The VTA varies as a function of the tracking force applied. If the tracking force is lower at the record than it is at the point it is measured on the scale then the VTA will be too high and this will affect the amount of sibilance you hear. A miss here will also affect the bass to treble balance your system has. The VTA becomes increasingly more critical as the stylus scanning radius approaches that of the original cutting head as it does in the Micro Ridge stylus design of your 20XX.
Please give us some more info to work with.
Scotty

[Bemopti123]

Take your deck, and the phono pre to a specialized audio shop who deals with turntables and pay them $150-200 to make sure everything works the way it is supposed to. 

The one place I can think of around your area is...

http://www.commaudio.com/turntable.html

while I bought an item from them, I do not know how good their turntable services is. 

or

even Tom Hills from the distributor for Scheu turntables in Northern Jersey and also Moerch tonearms,  to have it checked them over and aligned correctly.  That will be money well spent....besides many long distance trouble shooting.  I bought my Moerch arm to be attached to a Scheu I bought elsewhere and Tom did a great job installing a new Denon cartridge, as well as attaching the Moerch to the turntable and making sure everything was done properly. 

http://www.hudsonaudio.com/

The tools of the trade to set up turntables and other things can cost you way over the above amount. 


Paul

[alchemy_606]

While it is difficult to tell from your pictures, it appears that your armboard may be rotated, changing the placement of your arm.  The arm pivot should be back and to the right (closer to the rear right bolt).  If your suspension were really "off" the belt would rub on the spring towers and you would hear it, otherwise there is a close tolerance.  As for the finger nut, I find that finger tight is best.  If you do get it sounding "right," I have found the Riggle VTAF to be best for setting VTA, but you need low profile spacers between the skeleton and arm board.  Good luck.

[Scott F.]

Now that all the excitement has settled down I went back and reread your original post and picked up something I didn't see the first go around...

You are using the Mapletree 4A. I've had that one roll through my place a few years ago when I wrote for TNT.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/mad4multra_e.html

1) I'd be willing to bet the loud pops you are getting are due to one of the tubes going bad. Since you are relatively new to audiophilia, when a tube starts to go bad (as opposed to wearing out) they can hiss make loud pops just as you describe.

2) When it comes to the muddy sound you mention, I'd be willing to bet its a combination of two issues. First is that the tubes are wearing out (as tubes age, the extremes tend to roll off). The next issue is that you likely have one of the 4As that Dr Lloyd didn't install AuriCaps in. I didn't take any pics of the inside of that pre so I can't tell you which caps he used but it sure sounds like it is one of those unmodified versions. As I remember (and wrote) that pre had that "classic tube sound", very non-audiophile. That would definately be a contributor to the overall veiled and rolled off sound you mentioned.

Try some new tubes. See if that helps the popping issue. Those sound also brighten up the sound a bit too. If you are getting closer to the sound you want, maybe think about having a local guitar shop swap the coupling caps out for something better. Maybe those AmpOhm aluminum foil and oils JonL seems to like so well.

Sorry I didn't pick up the fact you were using the Mapletree. If I had, I would have gone there (here) in my first post.

Oh, from looking at your table pics, everything looks OK for the most part. The way you have it set up, you should be getting decent sound (at least as far as I can see from the pics)

Hope that helps.

[bacobits1]

I have been away for a week.
My, my, my, we get very testy here. Calling some one an asshole is just stupid.
 
All these setup procedures can get personal and you have to do what works for you. Very good info on the net in many places. Some of us get carried away too. Once it's done you should not have to mess with it until changing cartridges again. The final proof is in the listening.

The Michelle/ Techno is a nice table arm combo and should sing very nicely.

I agree about the popping tube problem. I had a bad GT 12AX7 doing it when I first got my EE Mini Max Phono. So I would replace ALL the tubes or have the Pre checked out.

Wally tractor? Good stuff if you can get one, very bad reputation on following through with orders (6 mo.+?). Right!
Forgetaboutit!

I use nothing fancy here for setup. Paper protractors. I do use a digital scale for VTF. I use a strong hand held magnifier with lots of light to make sure needle is perpendicular on a mirror surface and in the groove. Start out at the tonearm being level best I can. Check and re-check and listen.

I use a Dyna 10X5 which also calls for 1000 Ohm loading. I do not run it at the 47K MM setting. I run it at 100 Ohm low output MC setting to acquire the extra gain and it sounds excellent. My MC settings are only 50 and 100 Ohm.

Aside from the popping issue the bad sound has to be in the setup somewhere or a stylus/ cartridge problem.
 
If I was close by I would be more than happy to check the whole thing out for you. For grata.

Den

[TheChairGuy]

toobluvr,

I guess if a manufacturer recommends 1k ohm loading, it's not mis-information. I didn't make the specification for the cartridge and am just trying to help solve the problem. If you don't like it, take a frickin' hike yourself. If I were to tell others to disregard specifications, you'd be all over my back. Get real once in a while.

The world is filled with genius, not!

Wayner

Well, I've been away the past four days at a trade show and not checking regularly...and see we have combatants in our little slice of audio nirvana now

Wayner, you are being unusually grumpy and imperious.  Cut it out or enjoy a 30 day icing.  I love ya', I know you try to help always - but, you've gone over the line in insults here. I strongly suggest you apologize here in public or in a PM to toobluvr for your outburst.  I think he'll understand once you do - he seems a decent, easygoing chap (except when insulted as do many of us)

A cartridge's proper loading point is related to it's internal inductance and (mechanical) tip resonance.    Most 2-2.5mv HOMC's have internal inductance of approximately 0.2mh.  It's a fact - for similar output voltages - a moving coil will have lower inductance than any MM/MI (and, hence, sound quieter and more nuanced). 

Plug that value (.2mh inductance) into a loading calculator with 150 pf capacitance and you get, viola!, a loading of about 1K.  So, Dynavector is properly communicating that the loading point is not the std 47K that MM's tend to sound best at. One's results may not necessarily coincide with this recommendation.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

That said, I've got two HOMC's (an Ortofon and Denon) and they both sound considerably overdamped at 1K.  47K sounds just fine...but they probably would excel at something more like 5-10K. So, toobluvr's insistence that the Dynavector sounds fine and dandy at 47K is probably spot-on (based on what I've found over time) 

Whoever had the Dynavector medium output version had a version with lower inductance values...and hence would sound best loaded slightly lower then the higher output version.

Nonetheless, loading at something other than 47K wouldn't relate to any of the OP's problems, I think.  That lies elsewhere.

John / Co-Fac Vinyl Circle

[Wayner]

I apologize for my comment yesterday. I was out of line. I think it is rather difficult to describe problems that solutions are sought, and sometimes, the simplest questions need to be asked. I'm sure no-one here knows about every piece of gear and recognizes every kind of table problem.

I did email Dynavector today and they said the 1k spec was the basement for cartridge loading, but would work fine for 47k ohm loading. I emailed back and asked why they would put such a specification on a high output (2.8mv) cartridge, knowing that it was going to be plugged into a standard 47K MM phono board or preamp. I haven't heard back yet. The specification is misleading and perhaps is driving away customers that may have bought the cartridge,  until they saw the goofy loading spec.

Wayner

[lcrim]

Wayner, I saw this late last night and I appreciate you're making the effort to apologize.  I understand the frustrations of your current situation as I'm in the same place, unemployed.
John, took the opportunity to kick me for being grumpy as well in a PM.  Its no secret that we have wildly different approaches but we are united about online etiquette.

To the OP, there is a hell of a lot of effort here to help.  I live near Clinton, NJ in Hunterdon County probably pretty close, PM me for a phone number and a visit might be arranged. 

[toobluvr]

No hard feelings here, Wayner.
I was a bit grumpy myself last night.

Being both of the same vinyl persuasion, I'm sure we'd get along famously if we were to meet.
We might even hoist a few.  Cheers, buddy!

 

[Wayner]

OK, Good.

Well it's Friday night and I am going to hoist a few (in moderation) 

I have finished ARMod II (see thread) and will be evaluating the whole thing. Hopefully I will not have the problems that are the likes of what started this thread.



toobluvr,  thanks man. I also kind of chewed on Scott F. and he didn't deserve that either....sorry Scott.

Up for spinning is Rodger Waters, The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking. A totally awesome work that will make most understand why vinyl is way cool.

Wayner