[kingdeezie]

So, this last past year has been a complete "hi-fi" blunder for me....

One of my biggest mistakes has been my vinyl undertaking...

I'm 25 years old, and generally missed out on the original vinyl reign of supremacy. My parent's had an old Fisher all-in-one stereo system, which housed a TT, but none of it was anything particularly hi-fi, and I never really played with it growing up.

Flashback a year or so ago, and I read up on all of the merits of the Project Debut 3, and how as an entry level player, it was easy to set up, and that it sounded fantastic. I purchased it, and was completely blown away. I fell in love with Vinyl, and garnered over 100 vinyls in less then a few months. Paying for some, like my Meshuggah vinyl collection, hundreds per vinyl.

Flash forward a half a year or so from there, and I want to upgrade my TT. I fall into a few grand, so I start to research my options. I ask around to a few places and eventually narrow it down to the Nottingham SpaceDeck and a Michell GyroDec.

Now, the general consensus was that the Spacedeck is the better table, and the easier to setup. However, I got snagged by the audiophile "junk," and led with my pecker instead of my brain and purchased the Gyrodec, because, well, it just looked so damn sexy.

So, here I am now, a Michell Gyrodec, with a Tecnoarm, and a Dynavector HO 20X, that I can't even use. 4000 dollars worth of table, that's collecting dust.

I have yet to figure out what the hell is wrong with it, and, since I am a vinyl newbie, I have no idea how to fix it. I've considered selling it, but is that really the ansewer.

So, I decided to see if anyone here can offer a helping hand.

The list.

Problem 1) I don't know if this is an issue with static or if something on the table is broken, but sometimes during playback, and I get this earth-shattering POP noise that I am sure could eventually break my equipment. I do have forced hot air heat, and I did get this table in Febuary, so I am sure it might be static build up. I use the Mapleshade Records varient of the zap gun, and I have a carbon fiber brush with a ground wire to try and help, and while it has made it better, it still happens occasionally. This prevents me from listening to it at any reasonable volume, because I am afraid of having my equipment break. Does this just sound like I need a humidifier, or is something wrong with the TT setup.

Problem 2) It sounds awful. Plain and simple. Right now, I prefer my cheap 1000 dollar DAC to it, and that doesn't make any sense. Since I am new at this, I can't figure out how the hell to fix it. I set it up using the supplied protractor for the cartridge, but the Gyrodec's suspension is probably still not properly set up. I have an awful feeling that this is screwing up the sound something terrible. That, or my cartridge got destroyed while I was setting it up. The sound is just really muddy, and the highs are completely attenuated. I adjusted the VTA as best as I could, but it didn't make it much better, and it still sounds like crap.

Problem 3) My phono preamp is skank. I am using the built in phono preamp in my Mapletree Audio Ultra 4A SE. I have a feeling this might be part of the problem as well. It only accepts a loading of 47Kohms and is made for MM cartridges. I have the HO version of the Dynavector, but I can still never seem to get decent volume. Compound that with the POP noise issue, and it spells awful time....

I really love vinyl, at least, I did. I got it. But now, after what should have been a substantial upgrade, I am loathing it. I don't know what to do next. I can't find anyone near me to help me set it up...

Do I sell it at a huge loss? Buy a new phono preamp and hope that is the issue?? What? I have no idea.

Anyone willing to help me would be greatly appreciated.

I know the Gyrodec is not anywhere the best table you can buy, but for 4000 dollars, it should still sound good right?

[Wayner]

Problem #1. Throw your anti-static (maker) thing away. Records can become gigantic disc capacitors that will harbor tens of thousounds of volts of static electricity. I always recommend brushing the record surface with a damp Discwasher brush. It does 2 things, first neutralizes static, second, cleans the record surface. Although the gigantic pop could be from a furnace kicking in. Try a differect outlet.

Problem #2. Do you have all the set-ups correct? Is the cartridge mounted in the right spot for your tonearm specifications, do you have the proper VTF? Do you have the anti-skating set correctly, does the cartridge sit in the tonearm head correctly? Perhaps we need a picture of the set-up. What cartridge are you running, what VTF are you tracking at? All this kinds of stuff will help.

A newbie should never start out with an MC cartridge (IMHO). It's just too many things to get right and it's not on the plate for you right now. I suggest getting a more friendly cartridge, like an Audio Technica AT440MLa. It tracks like a bastard at 1.5 grams and is very musical. Uses standard 47k ohm loading.

How's that for starters?

Wayner

[crimsondonkey]

I have a Michell Gyrodec SE and for the money (well over here in £ anyway) it punches above its weight.  It is generally regarded as equal to the Spacedeck but obviously has a different physical aesthetic and sonic presentation.  The best way to describe it is the Spacedeck can sound darker whereas the Gyro has a lighter airier quality (huge generalisation just to make the point these are very different TT's so don't shoot me!)

So there's no need to think that you've bought a dud or that you need to sell at a huge loss.

Right then, onto your specific TT..

There's a lot of variables at play here which is why you probably feel a bit lost and don't know where to start;
1. The set up (lots of subvariables)
2. Your phono preamp stage
3. Condition of your cartidge

Now given that you bought this in Feb, did you but through a dealer, or is there a friendly dealer nearby who might help?

My thoughts are that you need some-one to plug it in 'as-is' to their TT set up to eliminate the phono-stage.  Then get a known working cartridge fitted  so that you can eliminate your Dynavector (I have the Dyn 10x5 btw).  This will then leave you with set up adjustment which can frustrate beginners and be a source of paranoia.

I seem to recall seeing some good Gyro set up guides, including photos on the web - I'll dig out the links.  As I recall once you've got the suspension bounce right and the VTA right the rest is 'fine tuning' - which means it should sound really good and let you fiddle about to your heart's content to get it better.

BTW if I was a betting man, I'd instinctively be investigating the Phono-amp, you've got a relatively high output MC but in my experience a mismatch in the impedance can make it all sound 'wrong' and lead to odd effects which might example the unusually loud popping - but as I said above, there's a logical problem solving route to follow first.

Good luck

[kingdeezie]

Problem #1. Throw your anti-static (maker) thing away. Records can become gigantic disc capacitors that will harbor tens of thousounds of volts of static electricity. I always recommend brushing the record surface with a damp Discwasher brush. It does 2 things, first neutralizes static, second, cleans the record surface. Although the gigantic pop could be from a furnace kicking in. Try a differect outlet.

Problem #2. Do you have all the set-ups correct? Is the cartridge mounted in the right spot for your tonearm specifications, do you have the proper VTF? Do you have the anti-skating set correctly, does the cartridge sit in the tonearm head correctly? Perhaps we need a picture of the set-up. What cartridge are you running, what VTF are you tracking at? All this kinds of stuff will help.


A newbie should never start out with an MC cartridge (IMHO). It's just too many things to get right and it's not on the plate for you right now. I suggest getting a more friendly cartridge, like an Audio Technica AT440MLa. It tracks like a bastard at 1.5 grams and is very musical. Uses standard 47k ohm loading.

How's that for starters?

Wayner

I am using a Dynavector 20X-HO cartridge, which, according to the place I purchased the TT and Cartridge from should work properly.

The problem is, that most of the stuff you just mentioned in terms of setup, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I used the supplied JA michell tecnoarm protractor to set up the alignment of the cartridge as best as I could having it be my first time.

In terms of VTF I have it set at 1.9 right now using a Shure gauge. The recommended I believe is 1.8-2.2.

In terms of VTF and azimuth, I have no idea to what lengths these are right or wrong. I had no way to measure these properly.

Any suggestions on how to properly do this would be greatly appreciated.

I am charging my DSLR, I'll take some pictures in an hour or so of the TT playing. I don't know how that can help, but maybe someone with a keen eye can spot something overtly screwed up.

[TheChairGuy]

First off kingdeezie - I love the way you write

Almost all problems are (easily) fixable, so try not to have a freakout over it

Where do you live? - you've got a bunch of issues and maybe even a member who lives near you could work it out in person.

Did you buy table, arm and cartrdige new (sorry of this was mentioned already) and do you have a dealer near you to test functionality of these things?  Or, even if you have to pay a analog-proficient dealer to do setup for another couple hundred $$$, it may bring you peace of mind.

All things can be overcome - just hang in there a bit and don't sweat it much.

Laterz, John

[Wayner]

OK, the Dynavector is suppose to put out 2.8mv, which should be OK. That really is the first problem, you have a cartridge with a different load and if your preamp can't be adjusted for it, the impedance mis-match may have a dance with frequency response, or suck all of the life out of it.

Wayner

[twitch54]

While I concur with Wayners help / advise, I may also suggest that you purchase Fremer's  "21st century Vinyl" set-up DVD. While it does not cover your tt specifically there is enough usefull info in there to provide guidence, IMO.

[BobM]

I agree, that before you throw in the towel you start from scratch and go over everything setup-wise. There are lots of tools and tutorials and such available to you on the web, and there's Fremers CD.

- check the tonearm to spindle mounting distance
- check the cartridge alignment and all its variables
- check the vertical tracking angle, start with parallel to the record surface
- then, if it still sounds like shite look at the phono stage

The 20X-H should work fine into a standard MM phono stage. No special loading requirements. It is also a fairly forgiving cartridge as far as setup goes. As for the pop, is there a ground wire connecting the arm to the phono stage? Is the phono stage grounded to the wall socket?

If this all sounds daunting then I suggest finding a local audio shop and have them set it up and test it for you. Shouldn't cost a bundle, and should be free if you bought any of it at the shop.

Don't feel overwhelmed. You ju8st need to approach it systematically to find the root cause of the problem. That's a good table and cartridge and when set up right should blow away your digital.

BTW - are your records clean?

Enjoy,
Bob

[ricmon]

I would just add one more thing toall the good advice here.  Along with the other setup aids mention get your self a TT setup and test LP.  I found mine to be indispensable in cartridge alignment.

Ric

[toobluvr]

I own that exact cartridge, and have used it on 2 arms (SME V and Kuzma Stogi "s"), and into 3 different phono sections.  It sounds great with whatever arm/phono section combo I put it into.

And don't worry about the loading.  It is perfectly fine into the normal MM loading of 47k, despite what the recommended specs say.  That is what all my phono sections are set at.   I track it at about 2.0g and with arm close to level.  Final adjustments and fine tuning are done by ear.

As BobM says it is a fairly forgiving cartridge.  Get it close to "correct" setup parameters and it will sound great.

I would say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cartridge, provided:
 
it is not damaged......
and it is installed firmly into headshell......
and VTA and VTF are close to the above.......
and it is a good match (ie. compliance and mass) with your arm

If all these conditions are met, look elsewhere in the chain for your problem.

Good Luck.  It may seem daunting but it really isn't.  Take one variable at a time and address it. Be methodical and use a process of elimination approach.

It is helpful if you have audio buddies around and can borrow gear...especially phono sections.  If you are confident in the coniditon of your cartridge and its setup, and have tried several phono sections, and your problem still persists, I would say the table setup is most likely the culprit.

[Scott F.]

kingdeezie,

I won't try to diagnose your popping issue as the advise already typed is likely the issue (mainly static buildup or (less likely) a grounding issue.

On to the other issue....

I am using a Dynavector 20X-HO cartridge, which, according to the place I purchased the TT and Cartridge from should work properly

A newbie should never start out with an MC cartridge (IMHO). It's just too many things to get right and it's not on the plate for you right now. I suggest getting a more friendly cartridge, like an Audio Technica AT440MLa. It tracks like a bastard at 1.5 grams and is very musical. Uses standard 47k ohm loading.

Wayner...sorry...
kingdeezie ignore what was typed. I don't think Wayner read that you are using the high output version of the 20. The Dynavector 20XH is a fine cartridge and will quite work well into any standard MM phonostage. I own one and can attest to its compatibility with numerous phono stages assuming it uses the standard 47k loading.

I used the supplied JA michell tecnoarm protractor to set up the alignment of the cartridge as best as I could having it be my first time.

Good...you should be close enough that you should be getting good sound from your deck. Even if you are slightly off, you won't get the sound that you have described....not even close.

In terms of VTF and azimuth, I have no idea to what lengths these are right or wrong. I had no way to measure these properly.

Don't worry about that for now. The Mitchell arm doesn't have enough vertical travel to cause the issues you describe. Tell you what, just get down where you can get a decent view of the bottom of your Dynavector. Adjust your VTA where the Dyna is slightly "tail down". It shouldn't look as if it is going uphill, just slightly tail down. I have found mine sounds best that way on several different decks.

This visual adjustment is done by looking at the bottom of the cart, NOT the arm. From there you have a decent reference point where you can experiment with adjusting the arm up or down to suite your ears.

I am charging my DSLR, I'll take some pictures in an hour or so of the TT playing. I don't know how that can help, but maybe someone with a keen eye can spot something overtly screwed up.

OK, this is where I think your problem lies. The sound you are describing could be one of two issues. First is that you have a slightly bent cantilever. If you look down the shaft of the cantilever, it should be straight and perpendicular outside of the body of the cart. You will also need to make sure the cantilever isn't bent upwards (or downward) as it goes up into the body. If it is bent, well, you can guess what needs to happen from there.

The next item is a little harder to detect. For this one you are going to need a jewelers loupe or at a minimum a 20X magnifying glass. You need to look at the condition of the stylus. I've been trying to find a picture of a line contact stylus on the net but can't seem to find one. Maybe someone else has one bookmarked and can post a pic of what it looks like. Anyway, use the loupe or a strong magnifying glass to compare your stylus to what is should look like.

Hope that helps...

[kingdeezie]

Thanks everyone so far for the great tips....

I can't find a shop around here that even sells TT's, let alone will set one up for me. I would most certainly pay a few hundred dollars if it meant that the table was setup properly. At least, then I would know its probably my phono preamp.

I live in the PA/NJ area if someone knows of any such shop that will do this for me. I tried looking on the Yellow Pages website without anything to show for it.

Wayner mentioned pictures so I charged my camera and decided to take a few. I know they aren't the best pictures, but, maybe something is so horribly wrong that it might be visible via the pictures.







See anything??

[TheChairGuy]

I live in the PA/NJ area if someone knows of any such shop that will do this for me. I tried looking on the Yellow Pages website without anything to show for it.

So. Jersey and the border areas of PA probably have ~2 million souls living in it...surely, there is a shop somewhere within it that does vinyl / analog. Philly is a metro area of 4+ million (4/5th largest in US)

Keep digging....there is bound to be one or more shops within 60 miles of your home that sell and do vinyl that can diagnose and fix your issues.

John

 

[Wayner]

Scott, I did see he was using a HO MC, but the loading is 1k ohm. Perhaps part of the problem. Secondly, you can't tell VTA by looking at the bottom of a cartridge. It is way too short and not all cartridges have a surface that is by design, parallel to the record surface. The only way to tell is a parallel arm (or centerline of a parallel arm) if it is tapered.

Wayner 

[Browntrout]

I would start with the basics first and once you know these are right look elsewhere.

1. Are all connections, including the earth, good and the right way round and in the right sockets?

2. Watch the turntable rotate is anything rubbing or touching can you hear anything mechanical?

3. Is your tonearm free moving no leads or wires restricting movement?

4. Is your tonearm fixed solidly in it's mounting? Can the main part be moved at all?

5. Is your turntable on the level?

are you setting the Bias adjustment to zero before measuring the tracking force with your scale? Are there any settings that you might have changed on your preamp?

[toobluvr]

Scott, I did see he was using a HO MC, but the loading is 1k ohm. Perhaps part of the problem. Secondly, you can't tell VTA by looking at the bottom of a cartridge. It is way too short and not all cartridges have a surface that is by design, parallel to the record surface. The only way to tell is a parallel arm (or centerline of a parallel arm) if it is tapered.

Wayner 

Loading this cartridge at 47k ohms is definitely not the problem.  As I posted earlier, I own it and have used 47k load with 3 different phono sections.  Excellent sound in all cases! 

Several others on this board also own it, load it at 47k and also report excellent results.

Please stop giving out misinformation.

[Browntrout]

Whats with the coil of green wire on the right of the second from last photo? 

[Wayner]

toobluvr,

I guess if a manufacturer recommends 1k ohm loading, it's not mis-information. I didn't make the specification for the cartridge and am just trying to help solve the problem. If you don't like it, take a frickin' hike yourself. If I were to tell others to disregard specifications, you'd be all over my back. Get real once in a while.

The world is filled with genius, not!

Wayner

[AudioSoul]

Along with the other things to check in your system, what are the other components? May be your TT setup is so good it is reveling weaknesses with other components..... 

[toobluvr]

toobluvr,

I guess if a manufacturer recommends 1k ohm loading, it's not mis-information. I didn't make the specification for the cartridge and am just trying to help solve the problem. If you don't like it, take a frickin' hike yourself. If I were to tell others to disregard specifications, you'd be all over my back. Get real once in a while.

The world is filled with genius, not!

Wayner

Hey genius....

I did not deny what the mfr recommends, nor did I call it misinformation. 

But your insistence (on more than one occasion) that the loading might be his problem, in the face of extensive hands-on evidence that says otherwise,  is indeed misinformation.

I have no idea why 47k works so well, when the spec says otherwise.  Maybe it's a typo?

You don't have direct and very extensive experience with this cartridge.  I do.  Many others do, as well.  And we all say the same exact thing.  Let me repeat:  

Loading the Dynavector 20X-H at 47k is perfectly fine and will result in superb sound,  regardless of what the mfr recommendation is.


Clear enough, I hope.   

You have said your piece, and you are wrong, my friend.
You are talking theory, I am talking reality.
So why don't you just zip it, before you make even a bigger fool of yourself.