[Rob Babcock]

The ATS panels on Craigslist wouldn't be terrible- they're just not really that great a deal.  The new price isn't a whole lot higher.  2" is a bit thin for bass traps but you could always double them up.  The real problem is that IIRC ATS doesn't have any facing/membrane, and so they probably would suck the highs out a bit too much.  If you look up ATS they do have decent prices on the raw rock wool & 703/705.  If you can't find it locally it might be worth looking into.  If  you can DIY the traps aren't at all difficult to make yourself (although GIK traps are cheap enough that you won't save an awful lot- it's more the fun of 'rolling your own' and the ability to customize the product.

[theclipper]

Thanks for the insight Rob.

I have been looking into the GIK stuff and it doesn't seem to expensive.  I guess I'm just wondering if getting a couple of the tri-traps from GIK would actually make a noticeable difference.  I just want to make sure it won't take several traps and treatments to really be able to hear any difference.  I don't have the cash to do that    Also, with my door where it is behind the left speaker would I probably have to move one of the tri-traps out of position to get out of my door?  And one last thing, how might I go about using a treatment on the right speaker as the first reflection is probably somewhere in the nook. 

Thanks much,
-Clipper

[poseidonsvoice]

Thanks for the insight Rob.

I have been looking into the GIK stuff and it doesn't seem to expensive.  I guess I'm just wondering if getting a couple of the tri-traps from GIK would actually make a noticeable difference.  I just want to make sure it won't take several traps and treatments to really be able to hear any difference.  I don't have the cash to do that    Also, with my door where it is behind the left speaker would I probably have to move one of the tri-traps out of position to get out of my door?  And one last thing, how might I go about using a treatment on the right speaker as the first reflection is probably somewhere in the nook. 

Thanks much,
-Clipper

Clipper,

The active part of my room is 11 feet wide and 12 feet deep with both a 7 foot and 8 foot ceiling. I have a pair of Tritraps right behind my main speakers. And a pair of 242's at the 1st reflection points.


Trust me. It makes a HUGE difference! Those are the first steps to treat your room or really anybody's room. As far as I am concerned there are only 4 reasonably priced ways to do room treatment:

1. DIY - And I really mean, CUSTOM build a room like Earl Geddes states in his Premier Home Theatre book, a great read.

2. GIK Acoustics.

3.  Real Traps.

And 4. A combination of the above would most likely be ideal.

Best,
Anand.

[theclipper]

Thanks for the input poseidonsvoice.  I am glad to hear the room treatments had a big impact on the final product for you.

It sounds like across the board bass traps are hands down a good idea.  It seems like first reflection treatments on the side walls aren't universally liked.  Does it ever sound like the the music is crammed in?  I like how there is the feeling of width to the music right now.  Also, if I were to go with some treatments on the side 1st reflection sites, how would I go about the right speaker as that wall kind of ends there?

The more I read the more questions I have!  Maybe one day I'll finally get this audio stuff down.

Thanks guys!
-Clipper

[oneinthepipe]

Does it ever sound like the the music is crammed in?    Also, if I were to go with some treatments on the side 1st reflection sites, how would I go about the right speaker as that wall kind of ends there?

I have never found the sound to be crammed in.  Just the opposite.  On the right side of the speaker, use a stand-mounted panel or hang the panel from the ceiling with 14 gauge galvanized steel wire using eye-hooks and anchors.  Having a panel there might also help with the symmetry.

[bpape]

Some people don't like absorption at the side reflection points in a 2 channel room.  There is always the option to use diffusion at the first reflections coupled with broadband bass control.

Bryan

[srlaudio]

Wow that is a safe thing to say!  We have pics from woodsyi's listening room.  He wrote a very good summary of his efforts that include large diffusors at the early reflection points.

[bpape]

It's a matter of preference.  Some people don't like absorption, some people don't like diffusion at the reflection points. 

Bryan

[srlaudio]

That is true.  My experience on the rifle range is that most people can't hit the broadside of a barn.  Maybe their "preferences" are based on speakers that have terrible off axis response.  That would negate a lot of the effectiveness of diffusors and maybe make absorption, that is attenuating the problem, a better solution.  A lot of the terrible polar plots as related to speakers have to do with compression drivers on horns, cone tweeters, and dome drivers as well.  Our good luck with diffusion at the reflection points are in systems that utilize the modern ribbon driver systems which exhibit excellent horizontal dispersion.

[bpape]

Agreed.  And many many otherwise good speakers aren't so great off axis.  Even ones that are considered 'good' off axis, can easily be down 6-10db by the time you get to 30 degrees off.  When you're in a 'normal' listening room and speakers have to sit relatively close to side boundaries, that becomes something to consider - not to mention the benefit of an absorber being able to deal with SBIR in the same situation.

Now, in a dedicated space with lots of room and proper setup, those things become less of an issue and diffusion certainly becomes a viable, and to many, a preferable option. 

What percentage of speakers out there in customers' homes do you think have ribbon drivers operating down into the vocal range?  I suspect it's probably only a fraction of a percent.  How about even just ribbon tweeters?  More, but still nowhere close to a majority.  Domes and horns are the vast majority.  That leaves the vast majority with real world off axis response issues that need to be dealt with.

As with many things audio, theoretically perfect and the reality of the majority tend to butt heads.

Bryan

[theclipper]

I figured I would update this thread and let everyone know that I decided to go with 2 of the GIK 244 panels for the rear wall and 2 Tri-Traps for the corners behind the speakers. 

Bryan was incredibly helpful and patient in helping me figure out what would work best for me in my room with my current budget!

A major thank you to all others who contributed all the great input and feedback in this thread.  I feel like I have learned a lot about room treatments in the past week.  Of course I still have lots to learn, but thats part of the fun I guess.  I finally got a chance to watch Ethan's videos, those are great!  Really makes things much easier to understand.

Oneinthepipe provided me with some great ideas about DIY traps but at this point in time I just don't have the extra time to put these together nor am I that handy.  Maybe in the future I can try my had at it,  but with being in grad school I have no free time as it is.

I will be sure to post pictures and give feedback as soon as my stuff arrives!

Thanks so much everyone!
-Clipper

[Rob Babcock]

I think the point about polar radiation patterns is an excellent one, and often overlooked.  Wide dispersion generally considered a good thing- remember that some feel the "perfect" speaker would radiate a perfect 360* pattern!  Of course, few real instruments behave this way, and if speakers did it could be a nightmare of room interaction.  Imagine as much output from the back and sides, then picture this speaker about 2' from a corner.  This is one huge reasons speakers like Maggies are so room dependent.  Most real world speakers balance decent dispersion (to prevent the "head in a vice" problem) and off-axis power response.  A tweeter small enough to give really wide dispersion often won't handle much power (remember that beaming is caused by the relationship between the driver and the wavelength being reproduced).

Diffusion shares one trait with absorption- as wavelength increases so must the size of the diffusor.  I'm no expert but it seems to that something small (like an RPG Skyline) placed at the point of 1st reflection would be little better than a rack of CDs, probably not enough depth to scatter down into the midrange frequencies.  If it were me I'd rather use absorption unless I had access to a bit more high performance diffusion.

[Ethan Winer]

as wavelength increases so must the size of the diffusor.

Exactly. Six inches deep gets you down to about 800 Hz, though there's still a useful effect below that frequency. Another "rule" is that your ears should be at least one foot away from the diffusor for each inch of depth. I'm not sure I agree with that though. In my experience even a few inches away from a diffusor is far better than the same distance from a bare reflecting wall.

it seems to that something small (like an RPG Skyline) placed at the point of 1st reflection would be little better than a rack of CDs

I'm not a fan of diffusion at reflection points, but a real QRD diffusor is much better than CDs on a shelf. CDs don't really diffuse at all because they present a flat surface. Not sure if I linked to this before, but my video All About Diffusion let's you hear the sound of various surfaces very close up, to magnify the effect.

--Ethan

[Rob Babcock]

it seems to that something small (like an RPG Skyline) placed at the point of 1st reflection would be little better than a rack of CDs

I'm not a fan of diffusion at reflection points, but a real QRD diffusor is much better than CDs on a shelf. CDs don't really diffuse at all because they present a flat surface. Not sure if I linked to this before, but my video All About Diffusion let's you hear the sound of various surfaces very close up, to magnify the effect.

--Ethan

No, CDs don't provide diffusion.  I more just commenting that small diffusors may not be much better.  And true QRD should work fairly well; maybe those Skylines are a bit bigger than I remember.

[theclipper]

Hello All  ,

I have meant to post back in this thread with an update but I have been so bogged down in school for the past month.  I finally have a couple weeks off from school so I wanted to make sure I finally posted.  Here are my new pictures:

http://picasaweb.google.com/wolford.chris/Room2#

I went ahead and ordered from GIK.  It probably only took a week or so for the panels to arrive.  As I said earlier, I got 2 Bass Traps and 2 Tri-Traps.  The installation was a piece of cake as the Tri-Traps sit in the corners behind my speakers and the Bass panels sit right on my desk.  I didn't even need to secure anything to the walls!

The first thing that stood out to me was how much more present the bass was in the listening chair.  I didn't realize how just how much of the bass I was missing before using the panels.  As I type now the bass isn't so pronounced in the corner anymore.  The sound is more even throughout the room now.  The echoing problem is gone for the most part I believe.  Its hard to tell how much clearer the imaging is.  I feel as though the soundstage doesn't seem as deep anymore though.  I'm not sure if it is just my imagination but it just seems shallower now that it did before.  Is that normal with the tri-traps back there?

I have also been trying out an Eico HF-87 amp for the past month or so.  I am thinking I will go ahead and purchase it soon to replace the Fisher 400.  It seems to tame the highs much nicer.  I'd like to do some more A/B sessions with the Fisher to make sure that the Eico is truly an upgrade.  Do any of you have any input on the Eico?

As you can see in the photos I decided to move my dresser off the back wall.  I'm wondering if it would help things to move that tall bookcase off the left wall and move it between the door and the desk? 

I'm wondering what you guys would suggest for the next step toward audio nirvana?  Would more panels make an appreciable difference or would it not be very noticeable with a room this small?   Think the amp is a good idea?  Any other suggestions?  I just want to make sure I am spending my money wisely to get the most bang for my buck.

Thanks so much for helping me out.  My sound reproduction is noticeably better, this wouldn't have been possible without all you wonderful sound gurus.

Thanks again  ,
-Clipper

[oneinthepipe]

Chris:

I can't answer many of your questions, although I don't believe that you can have too much low end absorption, especially in a very small room.  I have very reasonably priced gear, and while every component is important, I think that rigid fiberglass had the most bang-for-the-buck in my room, since I could have easily paid twice as much for a CD transport (I didn't, but transports can be very expensive) as for the entirety of my room treatments. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't spend a couple of thousand dollars on room treatments if I were using a 200.00 system for my audio.

Your room looks very good, and I am glad that the room treatments are making a significant improvement.  More panels will make more improvement, IMO, and the point of diminishing returns is a long way off.  The soundstage will change with the placement of acoustic panels.  You will really notice the difference with panels (or perhaps diffusors) on your side walls and ceiling.  The more bass panels you install, the deeper and better bass that you will hear.  I would advise, if you add more panels, that you consider purchasing the thickest panels you can afford.  TTBOFMK, it won't hurt anything to have broadband absorption, even in places where mid-high frequency absorption is indicated.  I have 4' panels on my ceiling, and 6" panels everywhere else, except at side wall reflection points, where the panels are 2", but if I were to do it all over again, for the third time, I would use 6" panels everywhere.

[theclipper]

Thanks Oneinthepipe!

I'm glad you feel there is much room for improvement.  I am very excited to hear what it truly possible from my gear with a maximized setup.

Anyone else have an opinion on where I should go from here?


Thanks,
Clipper