[theclipper]

Hello All  ,

I have been lurking on this board for a bit to try and pick up some tips.  I decided it would probably be most useful if I just started my own thread to see if I could get any help in getting my room set up properly.

I apologize in advance for this being kind of a long read.  I didn't know what details to leave out so I just wanted to be as descriptive of my situation as possible.

I live in a converted garage.  My main room is about 9.5' x 15.  The ceiling is about 7' up.  I also have a little nook off to the right of my room where I have my bed.  I carpeted the wall behind the speakers and put some padding on the ceiling as I figured it might help to reduce some of the sound that is traveling upstairs.  I'm sure its no huge help but probably does a little bit to keep it quieter upstairs for my roommates.  Here is a link to several pics of my room, I tried to caption them to let you know what they are:

http://picasaweb.google.com/wolford.chris/Room#

I have the speakers about 3 feet from the back wall, although the wall juts out by about 4 inches in the right corner.  So the right speaker is a bit closer to the wall then the left one.  They each sit about 17'' from their respective side walls, there is about 44'' or so between them.  I tried to keep them at about the same distance from the listening chair, I think I'm pretty close but I'm sure one could be slightly closer.  The chair is maybe 7' back from the speakers and centered.  I also took a laser level from the middle of each speaker and tried to toe them in to about the same distance away from the midpoint of the chair.  The floor is cemented covered by one layer of carpert.  The speakers are on a rug on top of the carpet. 

My gear right now is a Fisher 400, Rega P5 TT (w/Ortofon 2M Black Cart), Hagerman Coronet Phono Stage, Klipsch Forte II (w/upgraded Xovers & tweeters).  I also added little spikes to the bottom of the speakers.  However, in the next month or so I am planning on getting a Hagerman Clarinet line stage and an SET amp.  I mainly just listen to rock music.

I have had the damndest time getting the imaging to be centered  .  It seems like at one point I'll have the singer in the center but then the drums will be shifted to the right.  I just never seem to be able to get the singer and drums centered.  Also, whenever there is some sibalance it seems like the sound is always coming from the right.  Like the singer will be singing and then I'll hear this other little piece of his voice a bit over on the right and disconnected from his main image.  It can be very distracting.  Also, there always seem to be so much more bass heard when I am behind the speakers or in the corner on my computer.  I know that bass will collect in the corners, but I'm wondering if there is any way to pull more of the bass out toward the listening chair so I could hear it better. 

Well, I guess thats it for the description.  Please let me know if I can provide anymore info.  I am just wondering whether I could benefit from some room treatments or rearranging things, or moving the speakers.  I'm willing to try anything to maximize the sound I can reproduce in this room. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this post! 
-Clipper

[oneinthepipe]

Other members can provide more helpful suggestions about your room set-up.  I will only say that in my experience, rigid fiberglass helps a lot with imaging (and a lot of other stuff). 

You have a nice system, and you obviously have your priorities in the right places.  Your roommates must be thrilled to have you living below them.      Please tell me that you are a student.

From another Acoustic Circle newbie, welcome to the forum.

[jimdgoulding]

Onthepipe.  Couldn't resist that.  Lol.  Nice greeting, really.  Clip . . your speaks horn loaded?  That IS a tiny space.  Do they sound poorly in the corners?  I see a TV table rack along the side wall of one speak.  That can't be good.  Think you want the distance to your side walls to be equal.  Wish I had more to offer.  I'm sure someone else does.  Welcome.

[Ericus Rex]

Just to cover all the bases; are you sure your speakers are in phase with each other?  Double check your cable connections to make sure one is not connected in reverse from the other.  If all is fine then try reversing polarity on both speakers and see if that improves things.  It sounds crazy but you should be able to hear a difference between the two and red-to-red, black-to-black is not always the best sounding config.

[Ethan Winer]

the right speaker is a bit closer to the wall then the left one ... I have had the damndest time getting the imaging to be centered

You need symmetry for good imaging, especially in the front half of the room from your ears forward. You also need absorption at the side-wall reflection points. More here:

How to set up a room

I know that bass will collect in the corners, but I'm wondering if there is any way to pull more of the bass out toward the listening chair so I could hear it better.

Yes, corner bass traps is the solution. In a small room like yours, more absorption on the rear wall behind you is also useful. Carpet and moving blankets are not very good for acoustics because they affect only high frequencies. The proper way to treat a room is with broadband absorption that works well to low frequencies. I'm not sure how deeply you want to get into this, but there's a ton of non-sales advice on my company's web site:

RealTraps Articles
RealTraps Videos

--Ethan

[theclipper]

Hello Everyone,

First off, I just want to express my gratitude for the feedback I have gotten thus far, it is very nice of you guys to take a little time to help me out.  I decided to try to respond to each post.

oneinthepipe,
Luckily my roomates are pretty cool about my audio endeavors, I try to be pretty respectful.  How'd you know I was a student? 

jimdgoulding,
Yes my speakers are horns, and indeed this is a very small space.  I wish I had a bigger area but I won't get until I move one day.  I think they sound ok in the corners, when I sit at my computer they sound ok, the bass it just much more pronounced.  Good call on the the TV tables, I removed those today.

Ericus Rex,
I am positive the speakers are in phase with each other.  I just checked to make sure.  I will go ahead and reverse the wires on each speaker and try it that way for a bit to see if it sounds any better.  That won't damage the speakers or anything though will it?

Ethan Winer,
Thanks for those links.  I am going to go ahead and check them out in a second and do some reading.  I know the carpet and blankets aren't a real solution.  I was just hoping it would help a bit until I got a real solution.  So do these bass traps help to bring the bass more out front, or just kill the bass in the corners?

Well I think that wraps it up for this post.  Please let me know if I can provide any more detail about my room. 

Thank you,
-Clipper

[Ethan Winer]

So do these bass traps help to bring the bass more out front, or just kill the bass in the corners?

Bass traps make the bass more even all around the room. Peaks go down, nulls come up (your main problem), and ringing is also reduced. Ringing is responsible for the boomy sounding effect commonly known as "one note bass," where all the bass notes sound more or less the same. In small rooms, the most common problem is usually a lack of bass where you listen. The bass comes out of your speakers just fine! But it gets reduced where you sit due to reflections combining in the air out of phase with the direct sound from the speakers.

--Ethan

[theclipper]

So do these bass traps help to bring the bass more out front, or just kill the bass in the corners?

Bass traps make the bass more even all around the room. Peaks go down, nulls come up (your main problem), and ringing is also reduced. Ringing is responsible for the boomy sounding effect commonly known as "one note bass," where all the bass notes sound more or less the same. In small rooms, the most common problem is usually a lack of bass where you listen. The bass comes out of your speakers just fine! But it gets reduced where you sit due to reflections combining in the air out of phase with the direct sound from the speakers.

--Ethan

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  That makes a lot more sense now.  With a room as small as mine how big of bass traps do you think I would need?  Also, would these go in the corners behind the speakers?  Last question; is it a big deal that the corner behind the right speaker juts out about 4 inches?

Thank you Ethan,
-Clipper

[Ethan Winer]

With a room as small as mine how big of bass traps do you think I would need?

Small rooms need as much bass trapping as possible. You'll likely run out of space or money before you can have too many. So the more the better, and the larger the better. Always.

would these go in the corners behind the speakers?

Most rectangle rooms have 12 corners, so again, the more corner surface you treat the better.

is it a big deal that the corner behind the right speaker juts out about 4 inches?

What matters with acoustics is big things. Small obstacles don't matter.

--Ethan

[theclipper]

Thanks Ethan,

So what might you suggest as to bass traps to get me started? 

[Ethan Winer]

There's a ton of DIY advice in my Acoustics FAQ. And you can click the link under my name to see what my company offers. But I'm not here to sell stuff. Even if you have no plans to buy commercial treatment, there's a ton of advice there in the specific links I posted above.

--Ethan

[Ericus Rex]

No, reversing polarity won't hurt your speakers at all.  My understanding is that the red/black (pos/neg) designations are purely arbitrary.  Each stage of an amp and preamp reverses polarity so the number of stages before the output determines where are true positive and true negative.  When the polarity is 'right' you should hear a tighter bass and sharper imaging since the speaker cone will actually be moving out with each transient attack and not in.  I don't hear many people talk about this but have found it to be very important.

[theclipper]

Ethan,
Thanks for the link to the article.  I will take a look at it.  At first glance it looks like it might be pretty technical.  Would bass traps help to reduce the amount of noise that makes its way to the floor above?  Can too many bass traps make the room too dead?  I'm sorry for all these basic questions, but as I said I'm a definite newbie.

Ericus Rex,
I reversed the speaker wire and it didn't sound any better unfortunately.  So I just left it as I had them before.

Thank you!
-Clipper

[Rob Babcock]

If you have too many traps that are very absorptive at all frequencies the room could be too "dead" but this won't be an issue if you take care to make the front semi-reflective at higher frequencies.  It's virtually impossible to have too much bass trapping.

[theclipper]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for joining in to my thread.  What do you think is the most important treatment for me to try out first?  I don't have a bunch of extra money right now as I am a student, so I would like to put my money towards what will make the most immediate impact.  I just want to get it so it sounds correct in the listening chair, I'm not so worried about what it sounds like in the rest of the room.

Thank you,
-Clipper

[Dave G]

Clipper (and Rob),

Excuse me for jumping in.  What I'd start with would be bass traps in the front corners (front being behind the speakers) and traps on the side walls at the first reflection points.  Ethan's stuff is great (I've got a bunch of it), but since your funds are limited, you might consider the traps from GIK Acoustics.  A couple of GIK Tri Traps (bass traps) and 3 GIK 242 panels (they come 3 to a box) would be a bit over $400 plus shipping. 

Have fun.

Dave

[theclipper]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for joining in and and thanks for the recommendation!

Those tri-traps look like they would be pretty cool.  Is it a problem at all that they are only 4' tall and my room is 7'?  Also, about the 244's, I would def. be able to put one on the left wall at the 1st reflection point but do you have an idea about what I could do for the right wall?  My speaker is pulled up almost all the way to the nook.  I am wondering if the first reflection point would actually be somewhere in the nook.  Also, would these treatments help to reduce some of the noise that makes its way upstairs for the roomies to here?

Oh, and lastly, I found this ad on CL, I was wondering if these might be useful, or if they are junk?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/1145378954.html

Thanks so much,
-Clipper

[Ethan Winer]

Would bass traps help to reduce the amount of noise that makes its way to the floor above?

No.

Can too many bass traps make the room too dead?

Rob already gave you the right answer - RealTraps bass traps have a semi-reflective membrane behind the front panel to specifically avoid this problem. The membrane also increases absorption at bass frequencies.

As for those panels at Craigslist, those are only two inches thick so they're not suitable as bass traps.

--Ethan

[theclipper]

Thanks for the clarification Ethan. 

I guess I figured that if the bass traps are absorbing the bass it would lead to a quieter upstairs.

I was looking some more on CL and found some Echo Buster bass traps being sold by the same guy.  Do you guys have any opinion on how these might work 

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/1145371894.html

Thank you,
-Clipper

[Ethan Winer]

I'm not keen about commenting on other vendor's products in public, so all I'll say is that with bass traps size is everything. That, and using high quality material like rigid fiberglass rather than foam.

--Ethan