[Browntrout]

That what is audible? Do you mean a player that reads a cd perfectly first time compared to one that has to use error correction alot.
   Some people claim that this has no affect upon sound but there would be very little explanation for the improvement in sound that results from highly accurate transports. If reducing error correction to a minimum is not beneficial then the transport would not matter (or not matter nearly as much).
   I prefer to ask how can something not affect the sound rather than how can it.

[*Scotty*]

Here is a link to some interesting reading concerning CD standards and read errors. http://www.mscience.com/faq.html#CD     http://www.mscience.com/index.html     
For factual information about digital data transmission a person might PM or email      art at http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4456  or
audioengr  at  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=203
Both of these people work in the digital field and they might have time to answer questions.
Scotty

[kyrill]

the evidence Josh is yr ears

I have heard 2 cd transports, one cheap one ( NAD) and one i could not afford ( Jadis)  into the same super dac ( also Jadis) with jitter minimizing circuits. digital cable  and so on
both use eror correction, when errors happens because of for instance mechanical vibrations. So ver y expensive "super"  transports try to minimize vibration in order to MINIMIZE  error correction as much as possible. The difference was not subtle

See this "tank" .

Jadis JD-1 Pro Drive

[*Scotty*]

Here is a link to a recently published article that may answer a few questions.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm
Scotty

[Russell Dawkins]

useful links, Scotty, thanks.

[Ethan Winer]

Recording from a cd player to a hard drive then using software to show they're identical shows nothing other than the device is working properly.

Exactly! And if the entire system is working properly, then there's no problem!

It tells us nothing of how many errors in reading there were or how many times interpolation occured.

Again, you are confusing the reading of data from a CD, and potential error detection and data restoration, with the integrity of a digital data stream through a wire. A SPDIF device is basically a serial port. Have you ever heard that computer data carried over serial ports suffers from random corruption because the devices aren't smart enough to reliably discern a zero from a one? I didn't think so!

Ben, I have to ask, where are you getting this stuff from? That is a serious question.

Even though it's not what we're discussing, I'll mention that CD error correction doesn't kick in very often. The medium is robust because it has a lot of data redundancy - for every 16 bits of data there are 14 more bits of redundancy. And even when a CD is scratched so badly that both sets of bits are unreadable, the error correction does a good job of restoring the music making it unlikely you'd ever hear a difference. This is why Walkman type CD players have a large data buffer. The data can be read and re-read as needed (until the buffer runs out), to ensure that all of the bits are correct.

--Ethan

[turkey]

the evidence Josh is yr ears

That's not evidence, it's opinion.

[turkey]

Here is a link to a recently published article that may answer a few questions.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm
Scotty

Yes, that particular person makes money off of the idea that jitter is an audible problem. Yet he does not show that jitter really is an audible problem for most people.

[Niteshade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

How would you characterize the sound of a jitter issue? The wiki states it's a clicking noise. My cd players have never 'clicked' or burped unless there was a scratch on a CD.

[kyrill]

[double

[kyrill]

the evidence Josh is yr ears

That's not evidence, it's opinion.

that too is not evidence, but an opinion
You over estimate "scientific" "proof", most non academics do

Try to explain why damping  with effective footers helps a BIG way underneath poweramps or how
cables need break in time. I would say those who do not hear the differences PRETEND to be good listeners
while in fact they are not or not able to because of non curious or non-open attitude.  On top of that do not forget 80% of the people do not care for nuances in sound, taste, visual data or listening to conversations.
They enjoy Mc Donalds, wine for 3.99 a bottle and have the fun of their lives with MP3 at 128kB. And asking them to give a good summary of a discussion, most happily interpret new data into their old way of thinking

[Bill A]

Since this thread is still hobbling along I thought I would post an observation.

I was looking at figure 6 where the plots of attenuation verses frequency for the three Reference PowerKord cable lengths are given.  I was thinking the peaks were an indication of reflections due to impedance mismatch, but something doesn’t seem right.

The peaks of the 1 meter cable occur about 108Mhz apart where as the wavelength of 1 meter is 300Mhz.  In other words the peaks occur at an odd multiple.  That is not something I would expect.

For the 2 meter cable peaks are 54Mhz apart; one half of the 1 meter value.  The frequency of 2 meters wavelength is 150Mhz.

For the 3 meter cable, 36Mhz apart or one third the 1 meter value.  The frequency of 3 meters wavelength is 100Mhz.

Another thing that is interesting is that the peaks get closer together as the cable length increases.  I would have expected just the opposite to happen.  However, there is a relationship between incremental cable length and peak spacing.  At least that is something I would expect.

Any other thoughts on this?

Bill

[turkey]

Try to explain why damping  with effective footers helps a BIG way underneath poweramps or how
cables need break in time.

The only explanation I see is that these things exist in your imagination.

[rajacat]

Try to explain why damping  with effective footers helps a BIG way underneath poweramps or how
cables need break in time.

The only explanation I see is that these things exist in your imagination.

turkey, I think you need some cognitive exercises to improve your brain plasticity.

-Roy

[Ethan Winer]

... The frequency of 3 meters wavelength is 100Mhz ... Any other thoughts on this?

Yes I have thoughts: Anything that happens at 100 MHz is irrelevant for audio. Especially in a power cable.

--Ethan

[turkey]

Try to explain why damping  with effective footers helps a BIG way underneath poweramps or how
cables need break in time.

The only explanation I see is that these things exist in your imagination.

turkey, I think you need some cognitive exercises to improve your brain plasticity.

-Roy

So it oozes out my ear and onto the floor like some people's? 

[turkey]

... The frequency of 3 meters wavelength is 100Mhz ... Any other thoughts on this?

Yes I have thoughts: Anything that happens at 100 MHz is irrelevant for audio. Especially in a power cable.

--Ethan

Party pooper.

[Ethan Winer]

The wiki states it's a clicking noise.

That's a different issue from the "jitter" usually associated with audio. Audio jitter manifests as noise some number of dB below the music. Typical values are 120 dB and lower, which is 20+ dB softer than the residual noise of 16 bits. In other words, it is never a problem, not even with the cheapest junk sound card built onto a budget computer mother board.

For anyone interested in learning more about the audibility of artifacts such as jitter, I urge you to read this article. Please download and listen to the example files too:

Artifact Audibility Report

--Ethan

[Browntrout]

Hello Bill A thanks for reading the article and posting. I'm not sure why they behave the way they do. As far as relating length to frequency the actual length of the conductors is gretaer than the length of the cable due to it's weave. I don't know how much longer but certainly another 30% could be the case so the conductor length could be 4m in the 3m cable.
  Again I don't know enough about this stuff to hypothesis a reason for the strange nature of the attenuation.

[turkey]

Hello Bill A thanks for reading the article and posting. I'm not sure why they behave the way they do. As far as relating length to frequency the actual length of the conductors is gretaer than the length of the cable due to it's weave. I don't know how much longer but certainly another 30% could be the case so the conductor length could be 4m in the 3m cable.

It's the actual length of the cable that matters in this case AFAIK.