[Kevin Haskins]

I'm thinking more on the lines of an IEC room, with standards for the basics, speaker specifications, listening distance, room specifications etc.

The only thing this overlooks is the variance of the people doing the mixing and mastering.

As long as they don't spec which IEC power wires must be used I'll be happy.

--Ethan

You could state a standard for hearing requirements of the mixing engineers but I'd hate to go that far.   The only thing I'm really concerned about is that we have a standard for what the mixing engineer is working within in terms of the room & playback devices.    Personal preference for what goes on the recording is always going to be a subjective art.   

My main point, is that we really have no standard by which to judge neutrality.   People who say it should sound like the original "live" music are ignorant of what that means.   Really, our only standard is what the mixing engineer is picking and choosing.   It is his/her choice of what is recorded and unless we have a standard in which recordings are mixed, we have no way of knowing what the recording engineer actually wanted us to hear.   We have no reference for what is "flat" or what is uncolored.   All of those terms only have meaning when you have a standard to judge them by.   

[Browntrout]

I think we are talking a little at crossed purposes here as what I think to be standards appears to be something different to what you are talking about.
  The BBC does of course move with times and as you can see from the AES website they have standards for all manner of new technologies, some of which I'm sure their members were involved in developing. The setting of standards is not always about electrical performance it is more about the agreeing of parameters that are outside the professionals control, such as the acoustic of the end users listening room, and once these have been agreed on working together with all other areas of production to give the best results for that previously agreed parameter.
  Standards are not specifically always about attaining a level of performance but agreeing methods and approaches so that many small and different studios can produce work and work together. A bit like Fortran 77 being the standard computor language for scientific work as the name suggests it was writen in 1977 but is still used today as it, through agreement, enables understanding.

[Browntrout]

  "We have no reference for what is "flat" or what is uncolored.   All of those terms only have meaning when you have a standard to judge them by."

The 'True Stereo Recording' is just such a badge and I buy these for just that. There is no mixing as such, that is the way I like to listen to music, through the simplest most natural (as in two mics positioned ear-width apart) recording methods.

[Kevin Haskins]

I think we are talking a little at crossed purposes here as what I think to be standards appears to be something different to what you are talking about.
  The BBC does of course move with times and as you can see from the AES website they have standards for all manner of new technologies, some of which I'm sure their members were involved in developing. The setting of standards is not always about electrical performance it is more about the agreeing of parameters that are outside the professionals control, such as the acoustic of the end users listening room, and once these have been agreed on working together with all other areas of production to give the best results for that previously agreed parameter.
  Standards are not specifically always about attaining a level of performance but agreeing methods and approaches so that many small and different studios can produce work and work together. A bit like Fortran 77 being the standard computor language for scientific work as the name suggests it was writen in 1977 but is still used today as it, through agreement, enables understanding.

No... the kind of standard I'm talking about is a standard for what the mixing engineers are hearing.   Ideally, it should be the same for every engineer and hence we would have a "standard" by which all recordings where mixed.    

Think of it this way.   You have the 15 year old kid recording his small band for redistribution on the Internet.    The kid is going to mic everything and record it.   When he cuts the final recording though he is "mixing" the relative levels of the various mics, adding reverb, playing with different things to juice it up and deciding on what he wants on his Internet production.     To make those choices, he is using a pair of Altec Lansing computer speakers, with 2" full-range drivers and a cheap little one-note sub.   He is doing it while listening in the near-field in a totally unknown environment.   His mix is going to reflect that, because the standard for his recording is the system in which he is mixing it.  

Now... the guys at Paul Stubblebine Mastering have a much different set-up.   They have the best money can buy and a room designed around their years of experience.    That system and that room is still different than other studios though, even though they have the budget to buy the best.    When Paul puts something on tape, he is doing so with a system picked by his personal preference for how it should sound.    There still isn't a standard for neutrality though because all studios use different mixing rooms, with different speakers, different electronics and with rooms of various sizes and acoustic treatment.    The only standard for neutrality is the studio within which the recording was mixed.  

[Browntrout]

I understand what you are saying. Two studios will have different equipment but both can/do meet the standards. They really are quite detailed in how things should be done here is a sumation of one of their papers detailing pretty much every technical aspect of monitor design and implimetation.

AES2-1984 (r2003): AES Recommended Practice -- Specification of loudspeaker components used in professional audio and sound reinforcement
Printing Date: 1999-03-19
Publication History: Pub. 1984
Abstract: This document is a recommended practice for describing and specifying loudspeaker components used in professional audio and sound-reinforcement systems. These components include high-frequency drivers, high- and mid- frequency horns, low-frequency drivers, and low-frequency enclosures. For drivers, specifications are given for describing frequency response, impedance, distortion, and power handling. For horns and enclosures, specifications are given for describing directional characteristics and additional pertinent performance data. For all components, specifications as are given for describing necessary physical and mechanical characteristics, such as hardware, mounting data, size, and weight. Appendices supporting the text give guidelines for making proper free-field measurements, sizing of baffles for low-frequency measurements, a method for producing the specified noise signal used in power testing, and a summary of required information. The ANSI version is withdrawn. It had been available as S4.26-1984 (14 pages)

Quite obviously thay have considered what you are suggesting and have since 1948 been developing agreed design approaches for studio equipment and installation.

[Ethan Winer]

an audio engineer is the one who designs/builds the equipment and will most likely have a degree.

Most likely perhaps, but not necessarily. I have no degree and I've designed tons of gear. My expert friend Bill has a degree from MIT and he's the best EE designer I know. But another expert friend of mine has no degree and he was a senior guy at Hewlett-Packard for his entire career. Bill Gates has no degree. Not that an engineering degree is ever a bad thing! As I see it (uh oh), it's more about raw intelligence and being intensely interested and devoted to knowledge of the subject than having a degree.

In fact this one should be of interest to you Ethan
AES11-2003: AES recommended practice for digital audio engineering - Synchronization of digital audio equipment in studio operations.

Ben, understand that I've been doing this stuff for 40 years. I read - and write for! - all the important magazines, and I keep up very well. I don't claim to know it all because the field of audio is as diverse as the field of medicine. So you get specialists in both fields. But I know the basics of audio very well, and the majority of my day, every single day, is spent educating people. In fact, I'm hosting a workshop at the AES show in New York City this coming October.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

You could state a standard for hearing requirements of the mixing engineers but I'd hate to go that far.

Right, way too far. There's a famous engineer (can't recall his name now) who is deaf in one ear and partially deaf in the other. Yet he continues to turn out great work.

My main point, is that we really have no standard by which to judge neutrality.

The customers should be the ones to decide that. For better or worse!

There's a story about Geoff Emerick who recorded the Beatles early albums. The studio had a specific policy forbidding engineers from putting microphones too close to the kick drum, which is where Geoff needed to get the right sound. So there's also a downside of "rules" and standards.

--Ethan

[Kevin Haskins]

an audio engineer is the one who designs/builds the equipment and will most likely have a degree.

Most likely perhaps, but not necessarily. I have no degree and I've designed tons of gear. My expert friend Bill has a degree from MIT and he's the best EE designer I know. But another expert friend of mine has no degree and he was a senior guy at Hewlett-Packard for his entire career. Bill Gates has no degree. Not that an engineering degree is ever a bad thing! As I see it (uh oh), it's more about raw intelligence and being intensely interested and devoted to knowledge of the subject than having a degree.

In fact this one should be of interest to you Ethan
AES11-2003: AES recommended practice for digital audio engineering - Synchronization of digital audio equipment in studio operations.

Ben, understand that I've been doing this stuff for 40 years. I read - and write for! - all the important magazines, and I keep up very well. I don't claim to know it all because the field of audio is as diverse as the field of medicine. So you get specialists in both fields. But I know the basics of audio very well, and the majority of my day, every single day, is spent educating people. In fact, I'm hosting a workshop at the AES show in New York City this coming October.

--Ethan

I'd say most "audio professionals" are self-taught in some way shape or form.   There just are not many examples of University programs that specialize in audio.    

My degrees are in Chemistry & Computer Science.   I wish I had done a EE as an undergrad, and then Physics as a Masters Degree but hey.... I was drinking beer and chasing women.  

Most of what I know about audio design is either self-taught and/or I've had mentors that have helped me get some skills under my belt.   It is a continuous learning process though and I love that.  

[Kevin Haskins]

The customers should be the ones to decide that. For better or worse!

There's a story about Geoff Emerick who recorded the Beatles early albums. The studio had a specific policy forbidding engineers from putting microphones too close to the kick drum, which is where Geoff needed to get the right sound. So there's also a downside of "rules" and standards.

--Ethan

I don't know squat about recording so I'll not comment on mic rules.   I'm more interested in the playback system for the mastering engineer.   Having some standards there that specify the room/loudspeaker wouldn't squash creativity.

[Ethan Winer]

Most of what I know about audio design is either self-taught and/or I've had mentors that have helped me get some skills under my belt.

Exactly the same for me. Hell, I barely graduated from high school! I've been very lucky to have friends and mentors over the years to teach me about this stuff. It doesn't matter if you buy books on your own or at a college book store. Or if you pay for a college teacher or learn for free from friends. Again, the key IMO is an intense desire to learn and understand. That, plus aptitude, is all one really needs. At least for electronics. When I need a doctor or a lawyer, I do indeed expect them to be licensed and have a degree!

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

I'm more interested in the playback system for the mastering engineer.

On this we surely agree. I've devoted my entire current career to getting people to understand the importance of acoustics.

--Ethan

[TerryO]

   

My degrees are in Chemistry & Computer Science.   I wish I had done a EE as an undergrad, and then Physics as a Masters Degree but hey.... I was drinking beer and chasing women. 

Most of what I know about audio design is either self-taught and/or I've had mentors that have helped me get some skills under my belt.   It is a continuous learning process though and I love that. 

Thank you Kevin for the kind words.
Dan Wiggins and I both felt you were deserving of our help. I have often felt that the enormous time that went into the design and construction of the "Hydro Klammodynes" and later the "Super Tweeters" was time well spent, if for no other reason than the tremendous impact they had in influencing and inspiring future generations of gifted designers.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[turkey]

Dan Wiggins and I both felt you were deserving of our help. I have often felt that the enormous time that went into the design and construction of the "Hydro Klammodynes" and later the "Super Tweeters" was time well spent, if for no other reason than the tremendous impact they had in influencing and inspiring future generations of gifted designers.

Was there a smaller version, an "Anhydrous Klammodyne?"

[TerryO]

Dan Wiggins and I both felt you were deserving of our help. I have often felt that the enormous time that went into the design and construction of the "Hydro Klammodynes" and later the "Super Tweeters" was time well spent, if for no other reason than the tremendous impact they had in influencing and inspiring future generations of gifted designers.

Was there a smaller version, an "Anhydrous Klammodyne?"

No, actually there was only the "Red Tide Edition." It was the only speaker to receive an award at Vsac, taking 3rd place overall in the Open Unlimited Class. Kevin used to have a mention of it on his website.


Best Regards,
TerryO