[Niteshade]

When it comes to interconnects, power cords, etc... I'm VERY old school.

I had an involved discussion with someone regarding what is supposed to be a very good power cord. So good that it altered the sound of their equipment.

Logic would conclude a few things:

1. If the original cord could not handle the device's current demands, there would be a sonic improvement
2. If some kind of RFI/EMI filtering were used to improve the power quality. **
3. If, say a 15A cord were connected to a 1 amp device, unless #2 were involved, there should be NO noticeable changes.
4. If what the device's said power cord is plugged into is of lower quality than the supposed high quality power cord, it would be a weak link in the power system and no difference should be noticed. Would you plug a $500.00 cord into a $10.00 power strip or a cheap wall outlet? What is the possibility that your house's wiring is as good as the power cord you purchased?

**Typically these devices are built into boxes, special IEC sockets or cubes that plug into the wall.

Now- many of the issues people have can be eliminated by using the proper gauge power cord and good plugs and sockets on either end. Most homes use 12-3 to their outlets.  I would believe using high quality 12-3 right to the device's power input would work very well with high wattage equipment. If the device only takes a few watts to operate, then 14 or 18ga wire should more than suffice.

I didn't write this to 'stir the water' .  I just would like some answers based on good engineering reasoning.

[FullRangeMan]

My power cord is the speaker cable SUPRA-10 (10mm+10mm, over 2600 thin OFC copper wires stranded).
Once a time I used Audioquest RFI grafitte filters, they filter to much, waste of money. 
Regards, Full

[MGDeWulf]

1. If the original cord could not handle the device's current demands, there would be a sonic improvement
2. If some kind of RFI/EMI filtering were used to improve the power quality. **

These two aspects of power cord construction explain most of the improvements that can be provided by a really good power cord.  High capacitance and low resistance allow a cord to effectively filter the high frequency hash that is on every power line, and low resistance allows the line to deliver instantaneous current.

After that, the "art" begins.

Marty

[Niteshade]

This is neat: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/2000/janfeb/armstrong.html

As well as: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=693-5150.0011.0


These are two different kinds of filters- one a separate module and the other where the filter module is part of the IEC socket.

It seems to me that a good filter in conjunction with the proper gauge IEC cord would be the way to go. This way you know exactly what you have. Performance can be properly explained.

[Niteshade]

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1000RM2U&tab=models



It protects against high and low voltages plus filters the line voltage. (Filter, regulator + conditioner!)

Naturally, larger ones are available.

I have heard so many people discuss their terrible mains power conditions. This can be made into a viable, perfect solution.

[MGDeWulf]

This is neat: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/2000/janfeb/armstrong.html

As well as: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=693-5150.0011.0

I've had experience with similar devices and have not found either to be very effective, especially with power amps.  Better with line level components, but with some negative side effects such as slight compression and some perceived slowing.  They are not transparent to current draw.  A good power cord, is in my opinion, a much better solution.

And the best power cords that I have heard with tube gear are the solid ribbon types.  Which are expensive and can be unreliable.

Marty

[Niteshade]

If a filter is rated for more current than the amp draws, I can't see a reason for such pronounced side effects. They're supposed to reduce high frequency components and do nothing else. I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard- I'm looking for technical answers/reasons.

Some power cords twist their conductors to eliminate interference. That's a good idea. Twisting in conjunction with solid shielding sounds even better.

From my own experience, RFI/EMI manifests itself as buzzes, clicks and pops in my equipment- such as when the washing machine or AC turns on or off.  BUT- I have never had this noise effect the tonality of anything I own. The power quality out here is decent, not above average. The voltage range is within specification of everything I own.

[JakeJ]

Hi Blair and fellow Audiofolk,

First, as I stated in a PM to Niteshade I feel this thread is fine here in the Tube-O-Phile circle as he is not specifically hawking his wares but simply opening a discussion about power cords and conditioners, their effect on our systems, and the technical why of what makes them work.  Admin may determine otherwise and I will take appropriate action then.

This is a highly subjective topic, as are most wire discussions, so let's try to keep it focused and not let things degrade into an argument.

I have a few "high-end" cords and a Monster HTS-3600 power conditioner ($75 garage sale find).  In my experience power cords have had little impact on my system's overall sonic signature.  The greatest effect has been using two-wire PCs on tube amps.  Three-wire cords have consistently caused noise problems.  This was first realized when I rebuilt my Dyna Mk3 amps using Curcio premium upgrade kits and suffering low level hum with three-wire cords.  Joe Curcio explained that the amps were not designed to work with three-wire PCs and as soon as ditched them my problem went away.  I have found this to be basically true with all the tube amps I have used.  Preamps, however, are another story.

The Monster conditioner had a much greater effect on my system.  When I had my amps connected I heard compressed dynamics.  But using it with front-end components only I experienced greater focus and clarity without the dynamics problems.

This is an entirely "YMMV" situation and totally system dependent. 

That is essentially my .02.

JakeJ

[Occam]

Blair,

If a filter is rated for more current than the amp draws, I can't see a reason for such pronounced side effects. They're supposed to reduce high frequency components and do nothing else. I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard- I'm looking for technical answers/reasons.

That would depend on what your definition of 'is' is. If that rating is for maximum continuous rms sinus for some arbitrary temperature rise or saturation, that is certainly informative/indicative, it is hardly definitive. It is a rare audio powersupply whose current consumption is a sinusoidal. As you already know, a series inductive element in a powersupply is going to directly affect your angle of rectification conduction. The shorter the angle of conduction, the larger/shorter the current pulse charging the capacitors. The same applies to proper power conditioning. If a conditioners inductive element is saturating, regardless of its rms rating, its to dang small, current wise. If it extends the angle of conduction such that the capacitors cannot full charge, its to dang large, inductance wise.

Some power cords twist their conductors to eliminate interference. That's a good idea. Twisting in conjunction with solid shielding sounds even better.

Shielding (unless you're talking about 1/8" mu metal or 1/3" brass, etc...) does nothing for EMI, although it can be effective against RFI. Inevitably, there is a tradeoff against shielding's increased distributed Y (to ground) capacitance and whatever incremental RFI rejection beyond that afforded by twisting/star quad geometries. Shielding can be quite effective on components whose inadequately designed and implemented power supplies emit large amounts of rfi.

From my own experience, RFI/EMI manifests itself as buzzes, clicks and pops in my equipment- such as when the washing machine or AC turns on or off.  BUT- I have never had this noise effect the tonality of anything I own. The power quality out here is decent, not above average. The voltage range is within specification of everything I own.

I've no idea what power conditioning you've been exposed to. If heretofore you've restricted your empirical investigations to those 'obviously adequate' Corcoms, Shafeners and suchlike, who also use crap capacitors (but also adequate and appropriately rated), I'm not surprised. I've no idea what components you've evaluated with your power conditioners. They might have superb powersupplies with ideal power conditioning built in; that is very rare.
For me, I try to minimize a conditioner's impact as a tone control, attempting to maximize their substantial benefits in improving resolution, extention, control, soundstaging, imaging, etc...


Jake,

.........
I have a few "high-end" cords and a Monster HTS-3600 power conditioner ($75 garage sale find).  In my experience power cords have had little impact on my system's overall sonic signature.  The greatest effect has been using two-wire PCs on tube amps.  Three-wire cords have consistently caused noise problems.  This was first realized when I rebuilt my Dyna Mk3 amps using Curcio premium upgrade kits and suffering low level hum with three-wire cords.  Joe Curcio explained that the amps were not designed to work with three-wire PCs and as soon as ditched them my problem went away.  I have found this to be basically true with all the tube amps I have used.  Preamps, however, are another story.

The Monster conditioner had a much greater effect on my system.  When I had my amps connected I heard compressed dynamics.  But using it with front-end components only I experienced greater focus and clarity without the dynamics problems.....

While I do have a Monster HTS-3500 II on my 10yr old Sony projection TV, I'd never (again) inflict it on an audio system, certainly never on one as evolved as yours -
http://www.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=859

If the Monster improves your system, a better conditioner should provide even more benefits to your front end components, as well as allowing your cords to perform at their best. Felix conditioners, much discussed in the Lab Circle, are an inexpensive way to explore, if you're amenable to diy, and don't value your own time.
Ideally, you could borrow something like a Running Springs conditioner (there are certainly other excellent conditioners from other vendors) from a local audiophile. RS does make conditioners that are rated for amps as large as your VAC 160s, and others are happy with their appropriately sized Felixs for their tube monoblocs, but poweramps are the hardest challenge for conditioners.

FWIW,
Paul

[Niteshade]

Paul,

Thank you for all the good information!

I have never used any sort of power conditioner or specialty power cord. I was referring to the power straight from the pole. I  have never critiqued power conditioners or esoteric power cords nor owned a specimen of either one. 

I was looking for an explanation in what others thought of these products in general.

Other than using the proper gauge power cord for whatever's being ran- do you have any suggestions?

Would you believe a conditioner/regulator to be that beneficial if the the entry system from the pole to your outlet is in prefect working order?

Unless an amplifier were receiving a modified sine wave or lower than necessary operating voltage- I cannot see where anything special is needed for power conditioning.  A RFI filter might be a good idea if the circuit's being shared with lighting, motors etc...

[JakeJ]

Jake,

.........
I have a few "high-end" cords and a Monster HTS-3600 power conditioner ($75 garage sale find).  In my experience power cords have had little impact on my system's overall sonic signature.  The greatest effect has been using two-wire PCs on tube amps.  Three-wire cords have consistently caused noise problems.  This was first realized when I rebuilt my Dyna Mk3 amps using Curcio premium upgrade kits and suffering low level hum with three-wire cords.  Joe Curcio explained that the amps were not designed to work with three-wire PCs and as soon as ditched them my problem went away.  I have found this to be basically true with all the tube amps I have used.  Preamps, however, are another story.

The Monster conditioner had a much greater effect on my system.  When I had my amps connected I heard compressed dynamics.  But using it with front-end components only I experienced greater focus and clarity without the dynamics problems.....

While I do have a Monster HTS-3500 II on my 10yr old Sony projection TV, I'd never (again) inflict it on an audio system, certainly never on one as evolved as yours -
http://www.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=859

If the Monster improves your system, a better conditioner should provide even more benefits to your front end components, as well as allowing your cords to perform at their best. Felix conditioners, much discussed in the Lab Circle, are an inexpensive way to explore, if you're amenable to diy, and don't value your own time.
Ideally, you could borrow something like a Running Springs conditioner (there are certainly other excellent conditioners from other vendors) from a local audiophile. RS does make conditioners that are rated for amps as large as your VAC 160s, and others are happy with their appropriately sized Felixs for their tube monoblocs, but poweramps are the hardest challenge for conditioners.

FWIW,
Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for chiming in!  I have followed your Felix and power cord development for some time now and am aware you've put in some serious research to get to a commercial product.  Congratulations on the launch of Kaplan Cables.  I seemed to just miss out every time there was a group buy on the Felix boards and haven't seen any available on AC for some time.  Thought they had run out.  If there are some available I am very interested, please PM if so.  I am also interested in trying your PCs but have a few other "irons in the fire" right now.  I've read a lot of good things about RSA product but they are a bit pricey and rarely come up on the used market.  The only other fellow audiophile local to me isn't likely to loan me his Audio Magic PLC for more than a GTG listening session.

I am well aware the Monster is not exactly a top notch unit and would love to demote it to the video system.  Fortunately we aren't subject to brown-outs here in the west but there is plenty of the obligatory garbage on the grid.  Any affordable help is most certainly appreciated and I prefer to DIY. 

Jake

[Occam]

....
Other than using the proper gauge power cord for whatever's being ran- do you have any suggestion

Proper 14 gauge cordage can be appropriately rated for a 15amp 120vac circuit. It certainly presents no problems to UL or any other authority, nor can I see any reason as to why it would. But I've yet to use or construct a 14 ga cable that can equal (in my subjective opinion and metrics) what I produce with my 10 gauge cordage, even when powering a dac that consumes 15watts.
My general recommendation is to maximize distributed line-neutral capacitance (or is it minimize line-neutral inductance?) while minimizing 'to-ground', Y capacitance. Unfortunately, these 2 objectives generally conflict.

Would you believe a conditioner/regulator to be that beneficial if the the entry system from the pole to your outlet is in prefect working order?

[Regulators - whether autoformer tap changers, regenerators, or filler inners, are a whole 'nuther subject. My experience with them have been highly variable]
Yes. My Brooklyn feeder pole runs down under the street, whose distribution transformer feeds > 120 households, and has been patched continuously for more than 85+ years. Even if your household is fed by its own brand new dedicated distribution transformer, I wouldn't be surprised if if its primary and secondary were capacitively bridged so that the power company can, in the future, purposely deliver you all sorts of rf signals, meter reading, telephone, video, or anything else to yield revenue from its infrastructure. Climb a pole in the Boston metro area and you'll find the power company has already planned to bring you all these benefits, along with a direct path for all sorts of rfi.

Unless an amplifier were receiving a modified sine wave or lower than necessary operating voltage- I cannot see where anything special is needed for power conditioning.  A RFI filter might be a good idea if the circuit's being shared with lighting, motors etc...

Good luck with that..... Look, I hear ya, and I see why from your perspective you view it as a trivial issue. All I can suggest is you build/buy something, run your own measurements and listening evaluations. You've obviously those mad skills necessary.


Let me ask you a question regarding -

Would you believe a conditioner/regulator to be that beneficial if the the entry system from the pole to your outlet is in prefect working order?

In the above, if 2 different outlets gave different subjective presentations, is one or both of them malfunctioning?

FWIW,
Paul

[cryoparts]

Other than using the proper gauge power cord for whatever's being ran- do you have any suggestions?

I don't generally join in on these discussions, however, I'll comment on this.  Personally, the above has taken me years and untold tens of thousands of dollars to figure out.  That's the "art" that Marty mentioned earlier.

Peace,

Lee

[Niteshade]

Paul- you brought up something I totally forgot about: The power company sending data signals into homes. That is very interesting and I haven't given it much thought living out here in the suburbs of a backward town. Nobody really talks about it either. Data distribution over anything but coax or fiber optics is odd and unnatural. I don't like phone line DSL. The power company's version probably isn't much more reliable.  I have to use cable (coax)-based high speed Internet and that has worked flawlessly for years. We're too far away from the CO for DSL to work.

Now- if you have things plugged into your outlets to snuff these signals out- won't that cause a problem if you want high speed through your wall outlet? I know with DSL all the phones, security devices, etc... have to have low pass filters so the high frequencies are not attenuated. They must be inductance based filters. That leads me to believe that the power company might provide something akin to the DSL filters for your home's appliances if you get internet from the power company.

Well- That was an interesting tangent.

You said, "In the above, if 2 different outlets gave different subjective presentations, is one or both of them malfunctioning?"

The answer is, providing both have good solid electrical and physical connections- they would be good. The change in presentation could be a result of one run from the breaker box to the outlet being longer than the other. That is not a malfunction. I do not believe a couple volts drop (ie. going from 120v to 118v) will adversely effect much of anything.

An interesting site: http://www.securityideas.com/howtocalvold.html


Filters: It is better to have a filter installed at the power entry of a device rather than at the wall socket end.  The same rule applies to AF and RF boosters, but oppositely so: It's better to have a booster at the beginning of a run of cable rather than at the end of it. This is why the best TV antenna signal boosters are mast mounted- so they don't have to amplify garbage that gets into the transmission line.

The best filtering should be located within the device (amp, preamp, etc...) itself, not outside of it.

I have nothing against load regulating devices and power conditioners in places that have a poor power grid.

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever taken power supply readings from their amplifier during a time of poor performance? That goes for tube or SS amps.

[Occam]

nevermind....

[face]

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71333
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72539
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75093
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79010


FYI, companies like SignalCable have a 30 day return policy.  You could try a few different power cords from them to see if you can hear a difference between them and a captive cord or other aftermarket cords. 

I found that the change in sound varies from component to component.  For example, I didn't hear any difference whatsoever when changing power cords on my Pass F5 clone, but changing cords on my Cambridge 840C was more than subtle. 

Enjoy!

[turkey]

Data distribution over anything but coax or fiber optics is odd and unnatural. I don't like phone line DSL. The power company's version probably isn't much more reliable.  I have to use cable (coax)-based high speed Internet and that has worked flawlessly for years. We're too far away from the CO for DSL to work.

I am very close to my CO, so I get very good speeds out of DSL. It has also been quite reliable. (Which is a good thing since the telco's tech support is horrible. Not that you get better support at most other companies.)

I know several people that work in the communications division at one of the largest energy companies in the US. They have not indicated to me that there are any major issues with reliability for their data products of whatever type.

All of these technologies have their benefits and drawbacks. They can all have reliability problems. (If you need better reliability you're going to move to things like SONET or multi-home your network.)

Cable in my area seems to be about equal to DSL for reliability. In my immediate area, cable does not deliver anywhere near the claimed speeds. Too many people are  using it. With DSL I get very close to the rated speed, and at certain times of the day when cable is bogged down I get better speeds than the people using cable do.

I do prefer to avoid bridged technologies. Other than that, I think the best choice will vary from place to place and customer to customer.

The local telco has brought in fiber, but they are doing that so they can sell TV, rather than provide superior data services. Their fiber service is also, by design, not going to be as reliable as their DSL.

[Niteshade]

Thanks for all the good information! 

I found a good site too: http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html 

The science behind this stuff is very interesting.  That link I found demonstrates all the work that goes into a decent power cable. Anybody building these things is probably thinking, "you don't know the half of it!"   

Paul, you're right- It's time to start experimenting!  aa

It would be worth while to find ways to make various forms of equipment more resilient to outside interference.  I stand by what I said about internal filtering but believe good power cords can only reinforce things.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71333
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72539
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75093
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79010


FYI, companies like SignalCable have a 30 day return policy.  You could try a few different power cords from them to see if you can hear a difference between them and a captive cord or other aftermarket cords. 

I found that the change in sound varies from component to component.  For example, I didn't hear any difference whatsoever when changing power cords on my Pass F5 clone, but changing cords on my Cambridge 840C was more than subtle. 

Enjoy!

[markC]

Blair, you need to surf more. Many of us have been using DIY versions of Chris's cord recipies for years. Good quality for not a lot of money. Do they make a big difference? Dunno, but at least I have decent wire feeding my gear for a small/resonable cash outlay. And I enjoyed building them. I feel more comfotable with this cordage than the cheap 16g-18g wire that is typically supplied with components. I haven't fretted over power cords in a long time. Not to say I run all Vehaus design, (I do have a couple of "economy" commercial offerings), but none are what I consider expensive.

[Occam]

Blair,

MarkC's suggestion that you surf more, might be enhanced with a suggestion that you use the search function here in AudioCircle.

I stand by what I said about internal filtering but believe good power cords can only reinforce things.

Good on ya! But I hadn't realized anyone was disputing you.

From a few years ago -

So after you buy that CAT preamp, whaddaya gonna do? Give it 3 years, and some vendors will realize power conditioning is best implemented in the component itself because the load conditions are specifically known.

Actually read the whole thread -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32215.40
and you'll realize the subject of your thread has been discussed to death....

Regards,
Paul