Here is a test plot of a Audio Technica AT440MLa..............

Wayner · « **on:** 15 Apr 2009, 10:01 pm »

Thought I had a little problem, so I sent it in and they sent back this nice graph (other channel is almost identical). In fact both channels are within .1db, which is amazing. For those that think this cartridge is bright, look at the graph below.

If this is bright to you, you may have a set-up problem or your table sounds bright to begin with.

Wayner

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 10:02 pm »

Glad I just bought two of 'em!

Paul

lumendog · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 10:11 pm »

Nice

I wish all carts came with a graph.

orthobiz · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 10:18 pm »

Word is out on you, Wayner. Audio Technica wouldn't dare send you a bad cart, you're their best customer!

Paul

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 10:28 pm »

The graph didn't come with the cart. It was on a "under warranty" condition. I thought I could hear a faint degradation on the right channel, which showed up on the chart, deviating .1 db further. So I can hear .1 db? I'm still confused.

Wayner

lumendog · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 11:55 pm »

.1db difference that is some good hearing

I had my hearing tested last week and I have the "hearing of a 5 year old" my ENT told me.
I hope that's good, but .1db, I think you are lurking into toddler territory

lazydays · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:58 am »

just one small question, and I'll put it to bed. In the graph it looks like the cartridge dosn't go above 19Khz. Am I right?
gary

*Scotty* · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:29 am »

If your cartridge is misaligned in azimuth or in the rotational axis defined by a line through center of the cartridge from front to back you will hear a channel imbalance.
I also use a AT 440ML on my Maplenoll Ariadne table. The cartridge can be improved by cutting away the extra plastic on the sides of the stylus assembly and super gluing the much smaller stylus assembly to body. This suppresses vibrations in the stylus assembly that lead to a loss of information. The cartridge body also needs to be damped to suppress vibrations which can done using 3M constrained layer damping sheets, see link http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72701 Pieces are cut and applied to the sides of the cartridge body. I used three layers,but you may want to stop after one or two layers. Moving coil cartridges have almost no parts that can vibrate extraneously when the stylus is excited by the tracking the groove modulations. Ideally the coils are in moving in relation to a completely stationary set of magnets that have no vibrations in them. The same condition is desirable in a moving magnet cartridge. The coils in the moving magnet cartridge should have no mechanical vibration in them. Damping the sides of the cartridge body helps move you one step closer to this goal.
Be aware that both mods are not particularly reversible.
Scotty

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 09:50 pm »

Certainly, a mal-aligned cartridge can cause all kinds of woes, but we take great care in all of our TT set-ups. I have many new replacement stylus assemblies and when I switched the old for a new, the problem went away. That is why I sent it in.

As far as butchering up a cartridge, I can find many better different ways to damp the tonearm resonances other than taking a knife to the poor thing. It may sound different, but I wonder if it sounds better.

Adding constraint layers to a cartridge changes it resonance frequency and perhaps can be a bad idea. I always try to find solutions to problems without using drastic measures. If a cart is mis-matched to a tonearm, no amount of mods will make the marriage work.

As far as the response only going to 19K, there really isn't any reason to go much beyond that point as there is little energy on any vinyl at that extreme frequency. It's just starting to challenge the mechanical ability of any stylus to respond to, including the cutting head that made the master.

I do love how some manufacturers claim a high end of 100k or even 50k. Get real.

Wayner

*Scotty* · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 11:39 pm »

Wayner ,This has nothing to do with damping the tonearm resonance and everything to do with damping induced vibrations in the cartridge body and at the stylus assembly /cartridge body interface. If you recall the B&O cartridges had a non-user replaceable stylus, this gives a stable inertial reference for the generator system. The more the moving magnet cartridge resembles the moving coil cartridge the better the focus will be in the soundstage and the less muddy the window into the performance will be.
Scotty

analognut · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 02:51 am »

Regarding Scotty's comments concerning damping of the cartridge itself:

I believe he has a worthwhile point there.

And here's a simple test to see if you need cart damping:
Just take your non-hardening putty and apply it to the sides of the cartridge itself as a first step. Don't forget to re-balance the arm and reset tracking force! At this point you could also experiment with different amounts of the stuff, thereby changing the weight of the cart, possibly yielding a sound improvement, or not.
If there is an improvement in the sound it could be worthwhile to go ahead with the constrained layer damp.

Incidentally, I tried to use the link to that damping stuff he provided at Musicdirect, and I'll be darned if I could find the stuff there!

Maybe it's just my ears, but I tried the putty trick on the outside of my Denon DL-103R which is mounted to a SME V arm and could hear no improvement whatsoever. However, it is my understanding that many plastic-bodied carts will show an improvement if the body is somehow damped...

*Scotty* · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 04:04 am »

Here is the link to Music Direct again http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72701 The link has been independently verified. This not a link to putty or goo. The description for the product should be read.
I hope this solves the problem.
Scotty

*Scotty* · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 04:48 am »

I used to run a 103S before a cleaning accident and I would not expect much of a change from externally applied damping even from the 3M product. The DENON 103 design is in an entirely different league from the AT440ML.
Scotty

analognut · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 05:30 am »

Scotty-
Thanks for that link again.
If my head wasn't fastened on I believe I would lose it-
The stuff is indeed right there! (It really helps to scroll down the page)!

10/4 the 103 design in a different league than 440ML. I have been into vinyl for 25+ years, but didn't get down serious about it until a couple months ago and am in the dark as to what you mean. Would you care to educate me?

Thank-you,
John

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 11:52 am »

You guys can damp away, I'm not. Damping is not the problem I was having. However, I once tried the platicclay to the cartridge trick and it sucked all the energy out of the cartridge. It turned it into a Shure cartridge, dull, lifeless and boring. I like my AT's just the way they are.

Wayner

*Scotty* · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 04:05 pm »

analognut, You have avoided most of the problems that can plague people pursuing the vinyl part of our hobby by using a top notch arm and cartridge that work together. If I wasn't using a Maplennoll integrated air-bearing tonearm turntable combo the SME V arm would be on my short list of great tonearms. I may get crazy and get a Soundsmith rebuilt 103 with a ruby cantilever and a Shibata stylus but that is probably a whole nother thread. There is no doubt that radical surgery and damping the AT440ML cartridge drastically changes its sound.
I preferred the result others might not. Wayner you might try the Longhorn mod it may do something you like. It increases the tonearms polar moment of inertia in the rotational axis defined by line running through cartridge and longitudinally through the tonearm. This mod can reduce bearing chatter and also improve tracking and information recovery.
Scotty

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 04:14 pm »

Scotty,

I added the Longhorn to the prior generation AT440ML/OCC and I didn't perceive that it did much of anything to the AT. The thing tracks like glue no matter Longhorn or not. Besides the well-worn criticism of 'bright' that the original AT440 has...it also sounded tonally thin....and the Longhorn didn't change that a whit.

The Longhorn on the Grado, on the other hand, changes an occasional frumpy, ill-tracking beast into a veritable swan....and fleshes out nearly every part of the frequency spectrum in addition

Ciao, John

*Scotty* · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 04:52 pm »

John, no doubt about it , phono cartridges are funny beasts what works on one is ineffective or the wrong thing to do on another one. All that damping on the AT 440 ML cures the "brightness" and leaves its virtues intact.
If I go back to a moving coil I will have to recap my nearly 30 year Denon moving coil headamp, a major PIA.
Scotty

analognut · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Apr 2009, 09:06 pm »

I had never heard of http://www.sound-smith.com/denon/index.html so I went there and looked wistfully at the $899 price they had on the Denon 103-R.

My 1st thought was man, wish I had the money.

My 2nd thought was I wonder how many new records I could buy for the difference in price between stock Denon and Sound-smith modded one?

So I figured it out: Paid $275 (really) for new DL-103R.
For the difference I could buy 41 new records at $15 each, minus shipping. I believe I'd rather have the records!

*Scotty* · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Apr 2009, 01:06 am »

analognut, I had my eye on the Soundsmith 103-Ruby CL NUDE for $649.95. The price vs performance ratio looks very favorable.
Scotty