Tubes - better or just a different sonic flavor than solid state?

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 4 Apr 2009, 06:22 pm »

I know the question is a loaded one in a tube-o-phile circle, but it dosn't fit really anywhere else.

I get that solid state tends to be more reliable, doesn't have tube replacements to bother with, etc...but, do folks out there actually prefer solid state in all instances over tube gear?

I only use tube amps (I prefer solid state preamp for critically quiet vinyl gain)...but, without some measure of tubes in the system, my system lacks enjoyment

I've tried to do without them, but simply cannot bear it

I know that the hassle of tubes turns off some...but are there those out there that actually prefer, sonically, solid state to tubes in all instances? Especially if you run a CDP and or DAC, tubes just add bloom that is ordinarily missing from the digits.

John

rajacat · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:13 pm »

My amps (modded Heathkit monoblocks) are tube and the pre (Alstine T7) is a hybrid. It doesn't sound soft in any way. In fact most would consider it very detailed and fast. My previous amp was digital but my present setup provides more detail, dynamics with the added bonus of a more holographic soundstage.

-Roy

Watson · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:26 pm »

I think the number of people who truly prefer a full solid state chain after giving tubes a chance is probably low. The one exception would be people who grew up with the sterile sound of mid-80s to early-90s CDPs and came to internalize that as how music should sound.

But as for an all-tube chain, there are too many good speakers with an uneven impedance curve or low sensitivity that makes it impractical to properly drive them with tubes. In the end speakers make more difference than electronics, and I can see people legitimately preferring solid state amps. Most of those people would still prefer a tube preamp or source if they gave it a chance.

groovybassist · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:30 pm »

Just pasting in my reply from a similar thread - don't throw any tomatoes/eggs at me!

-Mike

"Well, as a solid state guy (not a rabid one), I'll dip my toe in the water here...

I use Naim gear - a CD5X, NAC 122X, Flatcap 2X and NAP 150X. While they're completely solid state, I think they do a great job of communicating the emotional aspects of a performance, which is what I believe this is all about. The recent vintage Naim gear is on the warm side of solid state, so it's not the dry, sterile sound many associate with solid state. I often think about auditioning some tube gear and am sure I'd enjoy it. I'm just not sure I'd enjoy wondering if my tubes need replacing, shopping for new ones, and actually replacing them periodically. I find I already have enough things to think about audio wise - speaker setup, room interaction, acoustic treatment, cables (although Naim simplifies this a lot), rack, stands, isolation/decoupling devices and on and on. I'm not sure I could take another thing to think about! Maybe I just need to hear the latest tube gear to be slain?

Enjoy!

-Mike"

Watson · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:36 pm »

If you've never listened to any tube gear, you should give it a try. Too many people never give it a try because they they assume it must be somehow inferior, for a variety of reasons. It isn't.

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:38 pm »

Quote from: Watson on 4 Apr 2009, 07:26 pm

I think the number of people who truly prefer a full solid state chain after giving tubes a chance is probably low. The one exception would be people who grew up with the sterile sound of mid-80s to early-90s CDPs and came to internalize that as how music should sound.

But as for an all-tube chain, there are too many good speakers with an uneven impedance curve or low sensitivity that makes it impractical to properly drive them with tubes. In the end speakers make more difference than electronics, and I can see people legitimately preferring solid state amps. Most of those people would still prefer a tube preamp or source if they gave it a chance.

Yeah, I know a lot of folks who prefer SS for a number of reasons. But I think you hit the nail on the head with the speakers for being a bit part of it. Today's speakers are generally SS friendly only. The tuning assumes a zero or near zero source impedance and crossovers are model on such assumptions as well. Tube amps will rarely meet that assumption. So it changes the tonality and Q of the tuning which can lead to boomy bass.

There is nothing to say you have to assume a zero source impedance. I have been modeling boxes for my speakers in unibox and it allows you to put in the source impedance of your amp. If one puts 2ohm which is more in the ballpark of many tube amps then one can optimize the box tuning for this source impedance. One can quickly see how it affects the tuning and it isn't insignificant. Crossovers are also affected by this and one can optimize for a known impedance there are well.

For a manufacturer to assume a 2 ohm source impedance is impractical, but for a diy'er it is of no consequence.

If you have ever heard Planar or Electrostats with a powerful enough tube amp to light them up, and you realize that the two gel, then you have experienced what I am talking about. The tuning and impedances of stats is more congruent with tube amps and lets you really see how they can be superior if the speakers are made for them.

groovybassist · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:46 pm »

Watson:

I actually had a Prima Luna Prologue One integrated amp for a bit. Sounded nice, but it didn't float my boat enough to keep it long-term. That's not saying I'd react to all tubes that way, just that particular amp. For me, the idea of tubes is definitely intriguing, but I'm afraid my head might explode if we throw another variable (tube wear/tube rolling) into the 97,000,000 choices all us audiophiles have to make in our setups! Maybe I just need to hear the right setup and it will all be over.

-Mike

pearsall001 · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:52 pm »

Been there done that. Now it's SS all the way.

werd · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:56 pm »

I am one of those guys. I think alot of the quality attributes associated around tubes is very tiresome. I am going to coin a phrase here ... Studio grade neutrality (unless someone else has said this before...hehe). The engineering that goes into these new generation of SS amps are hard to ignore. They arent schrill, while this has alot to do with digital engineering advancements, they offer a neutrality that is picture perfect to the recording. This i believe reduces listening fatigue and lets the music play on.

cryoparts · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 08:41 pm »

I appreciate tubes and have been playing around with them for 30 years, however, I also appreciate well designed solid state. Talent of the designer/engineer and circuit design is more important than the choice of amplification devices, methinks.

The three best systems I've heard (including my reference, the Sonicweld Pulserod system) were all driven by solid state amps. They were all well in excess of $100k though...

Peace,

Lee

JoshK · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 08:43 pm »

P.S. I am not hard-core in any one camp, although I usually prefer tubes somewhere in the chain and usually like a good tube amp to most affordable SS amps. However, I much prefer to DIY tube amps, so tubes are the way to go for me.

mjosef · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 08:50 pm »

SS...all the way to Tumbuktu. Now if you were heading to Sharackshu, then tubes on the sails and SS on the hull.

See, there are a "plentitude" of us SS. Careful with those assumptions.

After 8 pages of blah blah...maybe the best answer would have been...

Yeah, so?

konut · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 11:53 pm »

I grew up with tubes. I have heard excellent tube gear, although not lately. I can't foresee any circumstance where I would buy a tubed anything. The major reason is that I frequently listen at loud listening levels. While its true that tube amplifiers overload gracefully, the kind of headroom that is required for transient peaks to be reproduced accurately calls for high watt amps that are out of my price range. Clean, high wattage, solid state amps are much more affordable. The secondary reason that I reject tubes is that I do not use an active preamp. This requires the use of an amp with high gain. It also requires an amp with a high signal to noise ratio. This is where most tubed equipment leaves a lot to be desired. Oh, and all the other reasons mentioned in previous posts. The only tubes I can't do without are my eustachian tubes.

timind · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 12:14 am »

I prefer the signal to be as close to the original source as possible when it reaches the speakers. I believe solid state is the best way to achieve that end.

Tyson · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 12:27 am »

konut, love your sig

Speakers and amps should really be looked at as a system. Speakers with low impedance or low sensitivity are just not very tube friendly. These types of speakers are never going to sound their best with tube amps.

However, speakers with benign impedance and moderate to high sensitivity can sound amazing while driven by tube amps. High sensitivity in particular allows for dynamic peaks to be hit without the need for super high powered amps. Remember, a speaker that is 3 db more sensitive is essentially the same as having an amp with twice the power.

And remember that MOST loudspeaker manufacturers way overstate the actual sensitivity of their speakers. For example, if they say it's 89db sensitive, often it's actually around 86db (and I've seen some that are even farther off than that).

*Scotty* · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 12:54 am »

I have preferred the custom solid state amplifiers I have been using over the tube amplifiers I have been exposed to. The essential life in the music has been better preserved by the SS I have used. The dynamic life of the music as well as the low level information present has been delivered without any losses. Any 3D holographic information captured in the original recording has been delivered in spades. I have had the positive qualities associated with tubed equipment without the negatives. The only thing that would be missing that a confirmed tubeoholic might desire is the euphonic presentation that come from the presence of high amounts of 2nd harmonic distortion and the resulting masking of short-comings that may be present in the source material. That 2nd harmonic distortion is a 2 edged sword that I don't want to play with.
Scotty

konut · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 01:37 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 5 Apr 2009, 12:27 am

konut, love your sig

Thanks!

[/quote] However, speakers with benign impedance and moderate to high sensitivity can sound amazing while driven by tube amps. High sensitivity in particular allows for dynamic peaks to be hit without the need for super high powered amps. Remember, a speaker that is 3 db more sensitive is essentially the same as having an amp with twice the power.
[/quote]

Here's' the problem. Usually high sensitivity speakers are less linear than lower sensitivity speakers. Those high sensitivity speakers that ARE linear are BIG BUX! For bottom feeders, like myself, the greater value is with the SS amps and lower sensitivity speakers.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 02:16 am »

I like my sand amps, I mean 2 of them that I have.

A low powered, 10 watts per channel Final Music 6 battery powered op chip amps, sounds as grainless as tubes, and yet as nimble as the fastest amps out there.

I also like my DNA-225, for its jump factors, makes sluggish, low sensitive speakers sound fast.

Asides from that, I could place most of other SS amps I have heard in the fire.

Lately, I have really into a low powered SET amplifier built around a Siemens F2A tube. Makes my horn speakers come alive.

BTW, I agree with the SS phono amp piece, mine is all the way SS in that aspect.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 04:29 am »

I've just yet to hear a solid state amp that didn't have or add glare to the overall presentation...I have indeed tried to love them over time

I don't want to change out tubes yearly, track down bad tubes, deal with the heat and worry about leaving them up too long (using up tube life)....but they just sound better to me (so long as one's speaker is an easy drive for them)

I've tried tubes elsewhere in the chain and found, as has been mentioned here, it leave the overall sonics a bit too limp for pleasure.

Before I discovered tube amps (traditional wisdom from most engineers tell you to pare a tube preamp with solid state amp for better driving capabilities and more wattage)....I was unhappy with music (very unhappy with CD). With tube amps - I'm happy (with CD, DVD-A or vinyl)

Interesting to hear all your stories...tube lovers and not.

John

Tyson · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Apr 2009, 04:41 am »

Speaking of easy to drive speakers, here's a set of speakers that is very easy to drive and nicely sensitive, and I'm planning to build a pair, the Joe Rasmussen "Elsinore" speakers:

http://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_news.htm

Well over 90db (true) sensitivity and true 8 ohm impedance.

Here's some pics: