Buzz and a hiss

SF · « **on:** 26 Mar 2009, 06:01 pm »

Hi all;
I am wondering if you guys can help me out. I have both a buzz and a hiss on the MM phono input of my BP26 that I just can't get rid off, and I am running out of ideas. My table is a Pro-Ject 2Xperience with an Ortofon 2M Black cartridge, which is the top MM in the Ortofon line-up. I am using the stock phono cable. The BP26MC is on MM mode and is away 1.5 feet from MPS-2 and 2 feet from my 14BSST. When the phono cable is disconnected, there is neither buzz nor hiss. As soon as I connect the cable, without running the turn-table, I get both back. Connecting the ground phono wire to the BP26 and the table, reduces the noise but it does not eliminate it. I live downtown Toronto, and I figure this is RFI. What do you think? Is there anyway to get rid of it? I was even thinking of taking a balanced IC with XLRtoRCA ends plugged in to the RCA ends. Would this work? What would I do with the ground in that situation?
Lots of questions, I know, but it is driving me up the wall.
Thank you ahead of time. Please let me know what you think.
SF

alexone · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 06:52 pm »

SF,

dunno if this would abolish your problem but what about trying different wall sockets?? do you have the correct phase?
furthermore- does this problem appeared all of a sudden? and last but not least try a different TT if possible.

al.

SF · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 07:11 pm »

Thanks Alexone.
To answer your questions, the problem has been there since I decided to invest in analog playback 3 months ago (i.e. the TT is new). The cables, independent of the TT, induce hiss just dangling from BP26. That's why I thought they are behaving like antennae feeding RF into the phono stage. To avoid ground-loop problem, I have all of my gear plugged in to the same surge-protector except for the Amp which is plugged directly into the wall on the other side of the room. I am not sure what you mean by 'phase problem'. In the mean-time maybe I will try another socket, although, with the phone cables not attached to the preamp, there is no noise.
I appreciate your help.
SF

James Tanner · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 07:17 pm »

SF - does your turntable have a 3-prong ground plug?

james

SF · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 07:22 pm »

Hi James,
No, the ground wire terminates in mini-spades on both ends.
I should say also that without the cable hanging from the BP26, the phono dial has more hiss than the other dial positions (on the front) on full volume. At listening levels, the hiss becomes noticeable when the cable is attached. This was much worse when it was close to MPS-2, but now I am 1.5 feet away from it.
Shafie

SF · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 07:39 pm »

Sorry guys. It looks like I am giving contradictory answers here. Just to be clear. At full volume, there is significant hiss when I turn the front dial to 'phono'. At listening levels (volume control around 9-10:00 O'clock), the noise is only audible when the phono cable is attached and not without it (TT not running). I suppose with all the gain in the phono stage, there is bound to be some noise. I just didnt expect it to be so much. I have played with the positioning, and this is the best it is going to be. This is my first TT set-up, so I have no idea if this is to be expected or not, and if not, how to go about fixing it.
Thanks again.

Moon Doggy · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 07:55 pm »

If you have a TV or TV cable plugged into your surge protector that can cause problems with a new audio component. Even a TV monitor on the same wall circuit I believe can cause probs. When I got my new CD player I could no longer plug my tv into my power conditioner as they were incompatible. It is usually the video thats the prob.

werd · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 08:19 pm »

Hi SF

I had this problem with my sub, it kept buzzing. It never ended up being a ground issue regarding other gear of the sort. I didnt realize it until i opened up the sub and discovered a loose wire,the wire that engages the servo was off. Fixed it no buzz. So you should go and try a different TT if you have one available. If it still buzzes than the prob is somewhere further down..

p.s
that and a buck will get you on the bus, hope it helps.

rob80b · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 08:53 pm »

Hi SF,

With phono there is almost always hiss, especially at full volume, it's just the nature of the beast, multiple amplification stages.
Hum is usually picked up though the cables, sometimes the cartridge itself.
Try changing interconnects, in the past I've found shielded microphone cable worked very well.
Currently I'm running a high output Sumiko MC on a Rega P3/2000 though the MM input, the cables on the Rega are hard wired and are grounded via the ground of the cable itself and hum is almost non existent.

Robert

SF · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:16 pm »

Quote from: Moon Doggy on 26 Mar 2009, 07:55 pm

If you have a TV or TV cable plugged into your surge protector that can cause problems with a new audio component. Even a TV monitor on the same wall circuit I believe can cause probs. When I got my new CD player I could no longer plug my tv into my power conditioner as they were incompatible. It is usually the video thats the prob.

Thanks Moon Doggy. Currently the TV is on a different plug of the same circuit. The BCD-1 is plugged into the same surge-protector as the BP26 and the noise is still there when the BCD-1 is on standby mode. So I never thought of seperating them. I will disconnect the CD player and the TV altogether when I get home and will report back.
SF

SF · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:33 pm »

Quote from: werd on 26 Mar 2009, 08:19 pm

Hi SF

I had this problem with my sub, it kept buzzing. It never ended up being a ground issue regarding other gear of the sort. I didnt realize it until i opened up the sub and discovered a loose wire,the wire that engages the servo was off. Fixed it no buzz. So you should go and try a different TT if you have one available. If it still buzzes than the prob is somewhere further down..

p.s
that and a buck will get you on the bus, hope it helps.

Hi Werd. Thank you for your input. As I was explaining to Alexone, even when the turntable is not connected, the noise is there. To show it graphically the magnitude of noise is present: BP26 + cable +TT > BP26 + cable > BP26 alone. That's why I thought the noise is independentant of the TT to a great degree and that all the wire (cable + tone-arm wire + cartridge) were acting as RF receiver. Also, the TT is very simple. It just has an electric motor and nothing else. When the motor is off and disconnected from power, the hiss is still there. When I moved the BP26 away from MPS2 and the amp, there was a significant reduction in the hiss and buzz. But at > 1.5 feet, I can't move them any further. The BP26 and the TT are far away from other electronics. But given that the problem was worse closer to the power amp and the MPS-2, I thought this is mostly RFI EMI stuff. I have some things to try tonight and I will let you know how it goes.

SF · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:43 pm »

Quote from: rob80b on 26 Mar 2009, 08:53 pm

Hi SF,

With phono there is almost always hiss, especially at full volume, it's just the nature of the beast, multiple amplification stages.
Hum is usually picked up though the cables, sometimes the cartridge itself.
Try changing interconnects, in the past I've found shielded microphone cable worked very well.
Currently I'm running a high output Sumiko MC on a Rega P3/2000 though the MM input, the cables on the Rega are hard wired and are grounded via the ground of the cable itself and hum is almost non existent.

Robert

Thanks Robert. I think you are right. My own hunch has been that the majority of the noise is picked up. The hum that I hear is like the 60Hz hum in a transformer. Given that I am >1.5 feet away from other electronics with transformers, I don't think it's my own equipment. I do live downtown Toronto, and I wonder how much RFI/EMI the cables/tone-arm/cartridge/BP26 pick up. Tonight, I will try replacing the cable with Monster Chord II co-axial(?) cables and see what happens. I think they are shielded. In the past I have not done so wondering if phono cables are different than other IC. But I can't find anywhere anyone saying that they are different. The only difference is the extra ground wire present with phono cables -- correct? I shielded microphone wire works, I can't see how regular analog ICs will cause a problem. I'll give it a shot to see if I can at least gain a few more dB of noise reduction. Appreciate your input.

werd · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:46 pm »

Hey SF

Just another question, does your buzz come from your speakers or the actual pre when u engage the tt cable. Is it the same loudness of buzz when u turn up the pre or not. Because if its a bad connect somewhere it will just buzz at same loudness. but if its a rf noise or something it will get louder i believe. Maybe someone can verify that or correct me.

SF · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: werd on 26 Mar 2009, 09:46 pm

Hey SF

Just another question, does your buzz come from your speakers or the actual pre when u engage the tt cable. Is it the same loudness of buzz when u turn up the pre or not. Because if its a bad connect somewhere it will just buzz at same loudness. but if its a rf noise or something it will get louder i believe. Maybe someone can verify that or correct me.

Hi Werd. I never thought of it in those terms. In my case, the hiss and buzz get worse as I turn the volume higher. I will go over all the external connections to make sure they are nice and tight.

rob80b · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 09:55 pm »

Hi SK,

Cables connected to the preamp without being connected to anything else will most likely act as an antenna try it with some other inputs, the phono stage will obviously produce more noise, and then and the cartridge picks up even more.
Also 2' may not be enough distance for the turntable from the 14B, how far is the BP26 from the the 14B and is every thing stacked in one stand.
Think of the cartridge as a tiny microphone, anything it comes in contact with is sort of like an extension of itself ( a diaphragm) making it extremely susceptible to everything.
Something to think about, maybe not right away, but I've always used a wall mount for my turntables, getting the most sensitive device in the chain away from everything by an extra couple of feet, not to mention the other benefits )

Robert

SF · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 10:35 pm »

Quote from: rob80b on 26 Mar 2009, 09:55 pm

Hi SK,

Cables connected to the preamp without being connected to anything else will most likely act as an antenna try it with some other inputs, the phono stage will obviously produce more noise, and then and the cartridge picks up even more.
Also 2' may not be enough distance for the turntable from the 14B, how far is the BP26 from the the 14B and is every thing stacked in one stand.
Think of the cartridge as a tiny microphone, anything it comes in contact with is sort of like an extension of itself ( a diaphragm) making it extremely susceptible to everything.
Something to think about, maybe not right away, but I've always used a wall mount for my turntables, getting the most sensitive device in the chain away from everything by an extra couple of feet, not to mention the other benefits )

Robert

Hi Robert. You are right, when the cable was just attached to BP26, I moved it around, and did it ever buzz when it came within one foot of just even power cables. I tried my regular IC, but it was no improvement.
The BP26 is about 2 feet from amp and the TT is about 2.5 feet away. The MPS-2 is 1.5 feet away. Boy, I never thought it would be this sensitive. So I tucked away all power cords, and folded the phone cable in concertina fashion under the TT after re-routing it so that it is as far away from power sources..... it's better, definitely better, but still hiss + some buzz remains. If I could only make it dead silent! Guess that's the price for analog playback. I will push the TT farther away to see what happens next. Thanks Robert.
SF

rob80b · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 10:47 pm »

Hi SF

I've never heard a dead silent phono setup, far from it.
Again, think of having a microphone setup in a room and imagine no noise or sound, a phono cartridge is the same thing.
It's also the main reason why many still find vinyl so alluring even with all it's defaults, it's alive.

Robert

SF · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Mar 2009, 11:58 pm »

Hi Robert

Well, that makes me feel better. I am going to keep working on it though. I pushed theBP26 and TT another 0.5 feet away from the 14BSST, and there might be a difference, but it's small. Next, I am going to try shielded cables.
Where did you get the shielded microphone cable?

To Alexone and Werd; I just checked the electrical outlay of the condo, and I am sad to say that the entire living room is on one circuit! So my amp, plugged on the other side of the living room is on the same circuit as my dimmer, phono, CDP, TV, lights etc... no matter what I do, they will all interfere with each other. Great.

SF

James Tanner · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Mar 2009, 12:26 am »

Quote from: SF on 26 Mar 2009, 11:58 pm

Hi Robert

Well, that makes me feel better. I am going to keep working on it though. I pushed theBP26 and TT another 0.5 feet away from the 14BSST, and there might be a difference, but it's small. Next, I am going to try shielded cables.
Where did you get the shielded microphone cable?

To Alexone and Werd; I just checked the electrical outlay of the condo, and I am sad to say that the entire living room is on one circuit! So my amp, plugged on the other side of the living room is on the same circuit as my dimmer, phono, CDP, TV, lights etc... no matter what I do, they will all interfere with each other. Great.

SF

Hi SF,

A Torus would help.

james

SF · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Mar 2009, 12:48 am »

Hi James;

I was afraid you would suggest that. The problem is $$$. When I save enough to buy a Torus for my system, it will be big enough to support the 14BST i.e. it would be the 20A version. At the current price-point, if I have enough money to buy the 20A Torus, I would wonder if I could get a better sounding system, by investing that money in a new 3BSST2 to run the top while the 14BST takes care of the buttom end. I know this is off-topic, but I have no experience with biamped systems: which route would be the biggest bang for the buck. If you had my gear (14BST, BCD1, BP26MC, B&W 804s) which would you chose?

Thank you.