Any of y'all North Carolina folks wanna shootout DAC's?

Hantra · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 08:48 pm »

Quote

2) It boosts the signal up to 10 times

So it boosts the amplitude of the signal 10 times? Sorry to be so ignorant about it. Is there a site I can read up on it?

Thanks for hosting this! It sure beats listening to power saws, and nail guns in the dead silent background of a great system. . .

B

Brad V · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 09:06 pm »

Try looking at this website:
http://www.centasound.com/reviews/index.html

Look at the reviews under the DSP section. That should fill you in pretty well.

Have a great day,

Brad

BikeWNC · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 09:44 pm »

I think if the object of the shootout is to compare DACs, then we should try to keep the signal chain as simple as possible. I would propose that we at first do the comparison without the GW DSP. Then the signal flow would be Transport>DAC>Pre>Amp>Speakers. After the initial comparisons are made we can insert the DSP into the chain to see what effect it may have. Without the DSP, only one digtal cable would be needed, thus avoiding the problem of mixing or matching cables. Also, we should use similar PCs on the DACs to be tested and the DACs should be warmed-up before any comparison is made. I like the idea of using a power line filter on the DAC (and transport) if one is available. Anyway, just my thought about this process. Let's try to isolate the review components as much as possible.

Andy

Brad V · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 09:56 pm »

Hi Andy,

It's fine to take the GW Labs DSP out of the picture.

Keep in mind that the DAC goes after the Preamp in my setup, as it is a digital preamp.

Also, to do a fair shootout, there should be no line conditioning or power conditioners. Some DACS have better power supplies and filters than others do. If you put line conditioners into the test, then you really don't have a fair test. For instance, the Musical Fidelity A324 DAC, has shunt caps, which help ward off interference. Adding a $500.00 or more line conditioner might not benefit one DAC, however greatly benefit another DAC. That would almost have to ad $500.00 to the cost of that DAC.

The best bet, is to leave the DACs as they are and not have to use special power cords, isolation devices, power conditioners. To ad any of these would paint an unclear picture to those thinking of purchasing a DAC, IMO.

Have a great day,

Brad

BikeWNC · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 10:02 pm »

Hey Brad,

I agree 100%. Can you explain how the Tact pre works in that position. How does the amp get the signal it needs? Why use that pre in the chain if it just passes the signal through? I'm a bit confused because I have never heard or seen your pre in action.

Andy

Hantra · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 10:31 pm »

Good idea. . .

That's why I wondered what the DSP did b/c I don't want to ADD oversampling, or filtering to a non-oversampling, non-filtering DAC. Although it doesn't appear that the DSP does either, it would be better to try without, and then with after concluding the test without.

I also agree about power filtering. Some pieces respond much better to that, but don't necessarily sound better. I have no filtering at my place anyway except for the Quantum Symphony, and it's parallel.

L8r,

B

Brad V · « **Reply #26 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 01:17 am »

Hi Andy,

The preamp before the DAC is a different concept to grasp.

Most Preamps operate in the Analog realm, so they take a DACS output and pass it to an amplifier. The Tact is a digital preamp, thus it passes digital information. The volume control in the Tact, will tell the DAC how high a volume is needed for the particular digital information. So, the output of the DAC is extremely clean and not altered by a preamp, after the fact.

I also have a tube preamp that I used to use before the Tact. I can insert the tube preamp after the DAC and still get the same sonic signature from the tube preamp, as I got without the Tact, thus showing how transparent and neutral the Tact is.

I hope that explains it.

Have a great day,

Brad

BobM · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 05:57 pm »

Wish I could be there just to hear the Excelarray's. To those who are going, please post your impressions of those intriguing speakers too.

Thanks,
Bob

nature boy · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 06:03 pm »

Request to Wayne W.,

Wayne is there any way you might be able to ship a MENSA or smART DI/O to these fella's down in Carolina for the shootout? If memory serves me correctly, Tyson is currently auditioning and planning a review of the MENSA for AC.

I am not participating in the shoot out, but since it does not appear that the group has been successful gettting a Bolder Cable Company moddified DI/O, I thought I would ask.

Congratulations on the great CES showing.

NB

Brad V · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 08:19 pm »

Hi Bob,

>>> Excellarray audition too
Wish I could be there just to hear the Excelarray's. To those who are going, please post your impressions of those intriguing speakers too.

Thanks,
Bob
>>>

I thought we'd use some Bose 301's. Oh darn, I forgot I sold those.

You ought to come down.

Also, there will be a professional reviewer coming to my house and they will do a review in one of the publications of the Excelarrays. I can't comment on who it is, however the editor and one of his writers are both duking it out on which one will do the review.

Have a great day,

Brad

MaxCast · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 02:38 am »

You guy's better be careful. You might get called the East Coast Mafia or something

BradV's system sounds very intersting and should provide a good situation for a DAC shootout. It would be interesting to here what a "regular" preamp does in the system once you narrow in on one or two top DAC's.

Have fun guys!

Brad V · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 04:19 am »

We can go either way. Either use the Tact as the preamp or we can use my Audio Research Tube preamp that Richard Grey tricked out. With the Tact and the Excelarray's, you basically hear how the recording was recorded. I've had a director of a jazz group from Elon college up a few weeks ago. He had given me two of their CD's. He kept looking in amazement and kept saying, that's exactly how we recorded it. One of the albums is "Time Flies" and Barth is the directory. It's a great Jazz Swing album with a great Vibes players. The tube preamp will give some luscious mids and it sounds gorgeous, however we would suffer a little in the very bottom end bass.

I'll let the group decide. When they show up, I can play it both ways with my DAC and then they can make a decision.

Have a great day,

Brad

jackman · « **Reply #32 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 04:35 am »

I have been testing the Scott Nixon DAC for the last couple days and will post my impressions tomorrow. So far, it's a great DAC and performs very well. I can't believe this little black box makes this kind of difference in my system. Will do some A/B comparisons with the DIO tomorrow.

I must point out that I could easily live with this DAC. I think the Nixon DAC/Cal Delta combo is one of the most enjoyable digital front ends you could put together for about 650 bucks (300 for the transport used and 350 for the DAC fully built by Scott).

Lastly, Scott Nixon is a really nice guy. I had a chance to discuss his background and philosophy on designing audio equipment and like his simple no-frills approach to the subject. The tube DAC also runs very cool and always locks the signal without any issues. It's great for Audioenthusiasts to have a cool tube DAC option that is very reasonably priced and spec'd with high quality parts. Not going to win any beauty contests but it's small enough to stash out of the way and cool running enough to make ventilation a non-issue.

Nice work! Also, his digital IC is very good. Haven't done any side by sides with the Bolder and I don't have a price for it yet, but it works well and I expect it to be a bargain like his DAC. More tomorrow...

Jack

Hantra · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 09:30 pm »

Jack:

Those are my sentiments exactly! I mean, I haven't had a world-class digital front end until now, but even without hearing others, I'd put mine up against anything else!

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but like I said, this must be what analog sounds like!

B

Kishore · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 09:39 pm »

Folks,

Thank you for initiating a comparo. Looking forward to all your views! Have fun guys

Cheers,
Kishore

BikeWNC · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 09:55 pm »

Have we obtained a SmArt or MENSA Dio for the comparison?

Andy

Hantra · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 10:43 pm »

We do have a smART!!!

B

jackman · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 11:45 pm »

I just got done doing a lengthy listening session between the Smart DIO, an older Modwright DIO, the Scott Nixon tubed DAC, and the stock transformer versus a Bybee PS by Bolder. Several people have stopped by throughout the day to listen in. We listened to a wide range of music including jazz, female vocals in jazz and pop, rock, blues, etc. I'll list my initial impressions of each DAC in no particular order:

Bolder Smart DIO:
This DAC was up for sale until recently, however, it is NOT FOR SALE since I acquired a Van Alstine Fetvalve preamp and amp. The FETvalve setup has to be heard. I have listened to these Van Alstine fans on the net rave about his stuff for years and, frankly, dismissed them as kooks. How can something made by some mad scientist-type, older guy from Minnesota sound good? I don't know, but it does...it TOTALLY does. I could not choose a better amp/preamp for the Ellis speakers than the FET valve. The sound is full, large and beautful but this is not a review of the Van Alstine, it's about the DIO. The DIO fits in perfectly with this setup. The overall sound is very detailed without a hint of harshness. Vocals and lead instruments seem to float in the air between the speakers extending far beyond their physical boundaries. Soundstage is also fairly deep with space between instruments. It's the kind of sound I could listen to for hours. When the Bybee PS is replaced with the standard wall-wart, some of the "magic" goes with it. The depth seems to shrink, the soundstage is slightly recessed and the instruments seem to have less weight. I don't know if the Bybee version is worth the additional hundred bucks or so, but the standard PS is definitely worth the hundred and twenty Wayne charges. Very good sounding DAC!

Modwright DIO:
This model is no longer in production because Modwright has decided not to mod DIO's anymore, but a friend brought one over to mess around with and I figured "what the heck?". We initially A/B'd it with the Smart DIO using the Stancor PS on the ModDio. The sound was very good. Lots of air between instruments, bass was very strong and the vocals had a smoothness that was similar to the overall sound of the Smart DIO. When we plugged in the Bolder PS, the sound was taken to another level that was very similar to the Smart DIO. Bass was powerful and controlled, highs were even smoother and vocals and lead instruments had a body that sounds very natural. Harmonics were good, and the music sounded like MUSIC. Once we installed the PS, it was very difficult to distinguish this unit from the Smart DIO. One thing I noticed was that the connectors in the back were not quite as nice as the ones Wayne uses on the Smart and the lights near the middle dial were not disabled, however the knobs were not functional (similar to the Smart). The initial price for this unit was bout $150 over the price of the DIO. A real bargain by any standard.

Scott Nixon tubed DAC:
First of all, this DAC is very small and looks a bit like a toy. It is not a beauty queen by any standards with its black plastic box and single tube sticking out the back. Connectors were good quality, but the standard PS is your garden variety wall-wart. How does it sound? Well, if I was forced to describe this DAC in one word it would be: smooth! It is very refined, and has a sound that reminds me of some of the high $$$ Audionote DAC's I have been testing. It shares the no-oversampling design found on the latest generations of Audionote DAC's. Vocals and instruments are not as forward as the DIO but they sound very natural. Soundstage was wide but not quite as wide as the DIO. I could not get a CD to sound bad on this DAC. After several hours of listening, I concluded that I could easily live with this DAC. If I had not purchased the tubed Van Alstine gear, I would have purchased this DAC immediately. My wife said this little DAC is "cute" and confirmed my "smoothness" comments. I don't know about the looks but if you don't like its look you can easily hide it. Although it is a tube design, it runs VERY cool and can be tucked away nicely in your audio cabinet. The tube was only slightly warm to the touch after more than 24 hours of continuously running. If you have a system that runs a little on the "warm" side, you should check out this DAC. Don't get me wrong, it is not muffled and does not lack detail, but its overall presentation is slightly laid back and refined. For the money ($350 in completed form and, I think, under 300 in kit form) it's almost impossible to beat. I bet a good external PS would take this to an even higher level. Rumor has it that several companies used this DAC behind their high $$$ digital front ends at CES. After hearing it for a couple of days, I'm not surprised.

Final verdict:In the words of Eve to Adam "this is a hard one...". I was not crazy about the DIO until I picked up the Van Alstine gear which, because it is tubed, is very smooth and does not need any more smoothness or refinement. In this setup, the DIO works very well. The Nixon DAC is also very nice. If I had a solid state setup, it would be an easy choice. I give Nixon DAC a slight edge over the DIO without Wayne's PS, with the PS (and my tube based system) I give the DIO the edge.

Please note, YMMV. If you have a solid state or ultra-detailed or harsh system, or if you are on a budget, the Nixon DAC may be exactly what you are looking for. If your system is neutral or laid back, the DIO is tough to beat at this price point.

Thanks,
Jackman[/list]

BikeWNC · « **Reply #38 on:** 26 Jan 2003, 12:26 am »

Thanks Jackman,

for your impressions. Living where I do, out here in the hills of NC, there is little chance to compare anything. It will be great to get down to Greensboro for the shootout. I am especially interested in how my BC DAC2 will fare. Dan Wright offers a mod to the DAC2 for $600, for which I could purchase a MENSA Dio with PS instead. Well, I certainly don't have any money burning a hole in my pocket so we'll just have to wait to hear how things shake out next weekend.

Andy

Wayne1 · « **Reply #39 on:** 26 Jan 2003, 01:58 am »

Actually you will have MY MENSA!

I am shipping my personal MENSA level DI/O and a Bybee power supply to Hansa on Monday.

This is a special case and the only reason I am sending my DI/O to Hansa is because I know him personally, and I know he will take care of it.

I do not stock DI/Os. I mod other people's units.

After particitpating in two "loaner" programs I am very scared about sending any electronics around. Both pieces I received didn't work very well until I repaired them.

Tyson, Jason, Steve and I spent quite a bit of time today listening to Tyson's system and lots of cables and a couple of DI/Os.

The MENSA mod is a LARGE improvement over the smART level mods.

The MENSA DI/O and my modded CAL Delta kicked serious butt over Jason's XA-777ES on Redbook CDs. The Sony still sounds better when playing good SACDs.

Jack,

Thanks for posting your impressions on the smART and the PS.
Now you have spend some more money to get to MENSA