[Thebiker]

twitch54,
After a quick chat with Walter at Underwood HiFi, I found that there was an change that was missed by the literature...the cartridge is actually a MM not a MC.  Damn but that makes a difference went setting the switches on a phono pre-amp.  So, Walter gave me the correct settings.  What a difference a day makes.  The midrange opened up, the soundstage expanded and I suddenly remembered why I resisted digital as long as I did.  So, with the setup done right, I'm smiling! 

John/Chair Guy,
I always try not to make the same stupid mistake twice, and this one even has good ears and only likes to listen to her music through a tube system

Thanks,
Walt

[MaxCast]

Thanks for the helpful info, John.  I'll be warry of lps that smell like skunk 

[twitch54]

twitch54,
After a quick chat with Walter at Underwood HiFi, I found that there was an change that was missed by the literature...the cartridge is actually a MM not a MC.  Damn but that makes a difference went setting the switches on a phono pre-amp.  So, Walter gave me the correct settings.  What a difference a day makes.  The midrange opened up, the soundstage expanded and I suddenly remembered why I resisted digital as long as I did.  So, with the setup done right, I'm smiling! 

Thanks,
Walt

Sweeeet ! ....BTW, I like your avatar...from one "ole' biker to another" ! ....my ride...FLHX

[ratso]

okay i'll bite too. i sent this question to pro-ject (who routed it to "my regional contact" who i never heard from  ). i have a set up question. BTW before i start, might i add i purchased michael fremer's dvd on TT setup and it is excellent, i actually feel like i know what is going on somewhat! my TT is a debut III.  my question is about setting up the antiskating weight. i am using a benz MC20E2L with a weight of 4 grams and tracking force of 2-2.5 g. the pro-ject manual states the antiskating force should be set for the mass of the cartridge, then goes on to list the something about the downforce? i'm sorry this isn't very clear to me. should i be basing the anti-skate on the cartridge weight (4 grams = 40mN) or the downforce (as stated by benz, set for 2 grams = 20mN)? also i am thinking about getting a speed box II for this TT, should i use the smaller pulley for this? i hope some of this made sense to anyone, thanx all for your help and valuable advice!

[TheChairGuy]

ratso
Okay, here goes.  The anti-skating is usually set at about the same range of the tracking force...the weight, or mass, of the cartridge does not determine this.

I have actually found that 60-80% of the tracking force is normally the right range for anti-skating.

If you're running your Benz at 2.5gram (usually, you run tracking force at the high end of the normal range a manufacturer gives you), you can set the anti-skating at about 1.5 to 2 grams and you should be enjoying hi quality tune-age 

Don't get caught up in getting the anti-skating perfectly...it's a nuance, not a must.  Dialing in the tracking force correctly is MUCH more important, overall.

Your second question, about the Speedbox (or SE) is easy to answer.  There is no need at all to change the pulley.  You simply plug the AC cord into the Speedbox and the Speedbox into the wall.  The Speedbox regulates the voltage so that you have better speed control and the 33/45 switching is now done with the Speedbox and not at the table level (more convenient this way) 

It's all automatic, you need not do anything to enjoy the (relatively inexpensive) upgrade

Pro-ject is great about providing everything needed to understand their products on their site.  For the Speedbox, see here: http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_speedbox.pdf

Regards, John 

[ricmon]

OK. Heres another one.  When is the arm balanced properly?  At first I use to balanace my arm to be perfectly perpendicular to the plith.  But found that things sound better when I balanced the arm so that the stylus hovered just slightly above the album.  Thoughts?

Ric

[Derockster]

Hey John,just want to say this is a great thread and you're doing a great job helping us vinylphools to better enjoy this medium.You're the man keep the good work up and the information coming.derockster 

[TheChairGuy]

OK. Heres another one.  When is the arm balanced properly?  At first I use to balanace my arm to be perfectly perpendicular to the plith.  But found that things sound better when I balanced the arm so that the stylus hovered just slightly above the album.  Thoughts?

Ric

Ric
A tracking force scale will run $15 (the venerable Shure and Ortofons) to $60+ (fancy, but more accurate electronic ones).  Once employed, you will be able to do away with the whole 'balancing act' and focus only on the right numbers for your particular cartridge, rather than where to balance the arm.

The balancing and turning the counterweight set-up is rife with potential errors and getting the tracking force right is in the higher echelon of important stuff with vinyl.

For $24, including $4 shipping, you can buy a simple tracking force gauge and bubble level: www.turntablebasics.com

It's worth the small investment if you're getting the love you need with vinyl (maybe your Pro-ject has a bubble level built in?)

derockster
It's amazingly pleasant, excited, vinyl-loving audiophools like you that make me want to take more valuable time (that is in short supply recently for me, I assure you) to help out.  Thank YOU

John

[lcrim]

I always float the arm first to establish the zero point.  Twist the counterweight until the arm floats, The point that it floats at is where any more weight would cause it to start downwards.  Set that as the zero point with the indicator.

I usually start with a reading that is in the higher part of the range suggested by the manufacturer.  Then I try going down a few tenths and listen for changes.  I just try different settings and listening.  When I get sick of messing w/ it I stop.

I've tried using a force gauge.  I tend to trust what my ears are telling me.

With regard to antiskate, I usually set it to coincide with the tracking force.  I try a little less and a little more and listen.  Again I let my ears make the choice.

[ratso]

a (late) thank you, mr. chair guy! your insight was very helpful, as is this thread. i really appreciate you keeping the focus here simple (i really appreciate other people chiming in but with their advanced TT knowledge it sometimes tends to go way over us newbie's heads). 

[TheChairGuy]

Cool bro - you're welcome 

John

[ratso]

so while we're at it, here's another question that i never figured out and i bet other noobs wonder this too. is there some down and dirty way to determine how to match your cartridge to your phonostage input impedance (i think that's what it's called)? my phonostage allows me to choose 47K, 1K, 100 or 10 ohms. i have kind of determined that 100 ohms is a good starting point for my MC cartridge (from poking around online) but i have no idea why. is it merely done by ear? is there any science to it? is there some complex math problem i could do to figure it out? (if MC = X, then...)

[TheChairGuy]

ratso
Mr. Hagerman provides an online calculator for this kinda' thing 

There are several issues in this, tho.  First off, precious few cartridge makers offer up inductance figures. Fewer still turntable makers offer up capacitance values for their tonearms and or turntable leads.

Then, assuming you can scrounge these values up and load into the calculator....the final numbers often are incorrect in real world listening.  So, yes, you are left to use your own ears in the end

100ohms has almost become the de facto standard for low output moving coils......but, many feel this is too low.  Listen at 1K and see how you like it.  There is even a small group of low output moving coil enthusiasts that like 47K loading.  Unless your cartirdge is a real oddity (very low inductance values), the 10 ohm setting is rarely used.

Listen for yourself...like most things in audio, if you think it sounds good, it IS good 

John

VPI HW-19 Mk. III turntable for sale: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65353.0

[Miney]

On the topic of p-mount cartridges:

Kevin @ KABUSA.com helped me select a Ortofon OMP-20 for my old Technics TT...  I've been quite pleased with it.  But then again, being a relative newbie I probably don't know what I don't know, if you know what I mean.

I saw this the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.   

My real p-mount question is...  It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount...  what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?

Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out?

[Wayner]

In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.

Wayner  aa

[TheChairGuy]

I saw this the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.   

My real p-mount question is...  It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount...  what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?

  It's worth a shot to hear a moving coul for yourself.  I own the (now) $400 Ortofon X5-MC (non-p mount) and it does a lot of things right.  It does several things wrong, too, like tepid bass and soft dynamics, which keep it from my top 5.

Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out?

  Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at  (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now )

But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.

John 

[Thebiker]

twitch54,
Glad you like my avatar....it is what I ride, FLHT.  Ooops, the avatar is a Road King, my previous ride.  Now I'm on a 2007 FLHT.

After a couple of minor adjustments and close to 20 hours of playing time things have settled in to the point that I can't believe I was away from vinyl for this long.  Back when I was still spinning vinyl, I didn't pop for this good a table and I as using the on-board phono pre-amp of an Onkyo Integra Integrated Amp, don't remember the model #, but it was solid state.

This inexpensive Jolida tube pre with a couple of Tung-sol 12AX7's is better than it has any right to be at its price point .  The entire vinyl rig is quiet, dynamic and organic in its delivery , OK, I'll wipe my chin now.  Even at MSRP, this rig would be a steal.  At a bunch less than that it is killer!

I guess you can say I'm glad I have returned from the dark side!

Walt

[JCC]

I saw this the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.   

My real p-mount question is...  It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount...  what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?

  It's worth a shot to hear a moving coil for yourself.  I own the (now) $400 Ortofon X5-MC (non-p mount) and it does a lot of things right.  It does several things wrong, too, like tepid bass and soft dynamics, which keep it from my top 5.

Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out?

  Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at  (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now )

But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.

John 

A low output moving coil will require an additional investments in a pre-preamp, because the output is too low for a standard phono preamp. Even if you have a higher output moving coil, you will probably still want a pre-preamp because, you will hear noise (tube rush). So this an expense that you won't have with a moving magnet.

Another point to consider is the stylus shape. The most forgiving to issues like VTA and Azimuth is the elliptical stylus. When you have a line contact stylus, you will find that these adjustments are much more rigorous.

Starting off with a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus is the least expensive and simplest approach. As The Chair Guy said, going with moving coil is significantly more expensive. So what do you get for your money and aggravation? Because the coil is much lighter than the magnet you get lower mass, which can provide for additional sound quality, but only after you through the additional expense and setup complexity. If you have a line contact stylus, you will hear a difference in sound quality between a 150gram and 200gram record, and this implies adjusting VTA. All of this can provide amazing sound quality, but you need to be an audio techno bigot to go through all of this rigor.

So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!

[Miney]

In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.

Wayner  aa

LOL.  I guess that's one of the advantages of p-mounts... there aren't many choices.  The $180 Ortofon I linked to above is the only p-mount MC I've ever seen.  But standard mounts... apparently the $ky'$ the limit!

Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at  (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now )

But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.

John 

Oh yeah... spending time here is what's got me thinking... I've been eyeing up a certain VPI being sold in the Trading Post.. aa  (I wish!)

A low output moving coil will require an additional investments in a pre-preamp, because the output is too low for a standard phono preamp. Even if you have a higher output moving coil, you will probably still want a pre-preamp because, you will hear noise (tube rush). So this an expense that you won't have with a moving magnet.

I'm on a slow and quiet upgrade path and am still leveraging the phono section of my Denon 3801 AV receiver.  Next on the list may well be the Jolida JD-9 that Thebiker is enjoying soo much...  seems this can handle about any cartridge on any table I might end up talking myself into.

Another point to consider is the stylus shape. The most forgiving to issues like VTA and Azimuth is the elliptical stylus. When you have a line contact stylus, you will find that these adjustments are much more rigorous.

All of this can provide amazing sound quality, but you need to be an audio techno bigot to go through all of this rigor.

So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!

Thanks for the stylus info!

As for VTA and Azimuth, along with all the other rigors of vinyl...  that's really what I was trying to ask, and worded so poorly.  My TT's a complete no-brainer: fully automatic, no VTA / Azimuth adjustability, plug and play p-mount cartridge, can't swap arms, etc...  but dayum, after stuffing it with clay as well as a few other inexpensive tweaks, as long as the LP is clean, it sound so great compared to redbook. 

So what are the sonic advantags of the "real" tables, the ones I read about here that you guys know and love so well, and all the beauties I see on Agon etc, compared to my Technics?

[JCC]

So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!

Thanks for the stylus info!

As for VTA and Azimuth, along with all the other rigors of vinyl...  that's really what I was trying to ask, and worded so poorly.  My TT's a complete no-brainer: fully automatic, no VTA / Azimuth adjustability, plug and play p-mount cartridge, can't swap arms, etc...  but dayum, after stuffing it with clay as well as a few other inexpensive tweaks, as long as the LP is clean, it sound so great compared to redbook. 

So what are the sonic advantags of the "real" tables, the ones I read about here that you guys know and love so well, and all the beauties I see on Agon etc, compared to my Technics?

Thats a tough question. The advantages relate to amazing sound. When everything is working right, you can hear all of the details down to the Nat walking across a silent cymbal. When I go back to CD's, I often miss all of the low level detail. I say often, because there are exceptions. I find myself searching on Ebay to purchase copies of great recordings. So far my favorites are from Sheffield Labs. I set a reasonable limit, and often find great records are ~$10.

But when I can get my wife to listen, she says "so what." I ask her what she thinks about all of the low level detail, and she says "I don't care." So it depends upon you and the hobby. But if you love it like I do, then it's a lot of fun and worth it.