Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in

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TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #80 on: 31 May 2009, 03:27 pm »
ratso,

If it is indeed 'rumble' you hear it can probably be tamed a bit with a $129 Pro-ject Speedbox.

If it's feedback, that is the (generally low frequency) sounds that are stores in your room and table support, a good thick granite or maple block under your table with your choice of feet will help greatly.  The choice of granite or maple or the type of feet (brass, carbon fibre, wood, NAVCOM, sorbothane or other squishy type) is a point of subjectivity. 

Does your table rest directly on a shelf or support now?

Choosing a good sub-table and feet may even affect rumble...allowing some of it to drain away from your table instead of towards your ultra-sensitive cartridge.  4 (very small) moca wood chocks (practically free) under a 3.5" maple butcher block ($about $100 with freight) and 4 brass feet ($25 at Parts Express) pointed down from the table into the maple block was my ticket to happiness.  This has been a better upgrade than any cartridge swap-out for me  :thumb:

As a primarily mechanical device, ridding your deck of extraneous noise is a methodical affair.  Once you shuck off enough of it and let your cartridge/arm do its work - you'll revel in the beauty of vinyl :)

btw, don't discount a change in mats too to help remove 'noise'.  The right one will isolate and or absorb stored energy in your platter/deck before it reaches your cartridge, too.

Hang in there - next stop, nirvana :wink:

John


launche

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #81 on: 31 May 2009, 05:17 pm »
What is recommended for best isolation of suspended tables?

Scottdazzle

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #82 on: 31 May 2009, 06:38 pm »
Launche,

Your mailbox is full. I can't send you a p.m. until you ditch some messages.  :?

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #83 on: 31 May 2009, 07:11 pm »
What is recommended for best isolation of suspended tables?

Well, in general, suspended tables are already substantially 'shielded' from feedback by use of a suspension.  They also tend to be more prone to footfall skips because of it, too.

So, recommended is likely a hard foot...ie, wood, brass, carbon fibre, etc under them.  Some squishy pud will make it unerringly bouncy and prone to slight movements in your room (I am near certain there are some suspended tables that may be the exempt from this, but in general, suspension is already bountifully bouncy :wink:)

The best, as in most things hi-end audio, is subjective.  But, you're probably on a closer trail to happiness looking at hard footers rather than soft for suspended tables.

John

ratso

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #84 on: 31 May 2009, 11:14 pm »
many thanx chairguy, all good suggestions that i will try! i also read that TT can be sensitive to placement by your speakers, is this also because of feedback? (my martin logans fire backwards of course as well as forward, i.e. toward my turntable). however, i mention this just for others sake, i don't think it's contributing much to MY problem. when testing my system i literally pulled my TT about 10 feet out into the room to make sure the hum/rumble wasn't being caused by other equipment around it.

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #85 on: 1 Jun 2009, 02:18 am »
Good support under your table, be it maple (my preferred) or granite (these are the two most discussed...save the audiophool solutions like Sounds of Silence, Townshend Isolation bases, Brightstar, DIY sandboxes, etc) often make an enormous difference.

Feedback is normally due to low frequency sympathetic sounds in your room during playback.  The louder you turn it up, the worse the issue becomes typically.

My table was a top of a 3 shelf Target rack filled with sand and probably weighed 125 lbs with all the equipment on it.  It had 4 spike feet at the bottom and the platform that held the shelf was on 4 spiked feet.  Yet, despite this, the addition of a 3.5" maple platform on top of all that and under the table was HUGE.

Dawn's Depot on ebay I bought it from (no affiliation with her other than pleased customer 2x): http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A_W0QQitemZ110392268975QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b3e458af&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A30

John

ratso

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #86 on: 4 Jun 2009, 11:58 pm »
just to follow up mr. chairguy, it is indeed feedback. i (with the help of an extremely helpful local HT installer) managed to troubleshoot my system. after months on the phone/online with my preamp builder, local stereo repair shops, jensen transformers and others, we finally found the cause of my 'hum' in my turntable setup. i foolishly overlooked a $30 rca female to female connector i was using to extend a rca cable's length - it was of course, defective. oh an BTW who made this piece of shite connector? wait for it... yes you guessed it MONSTER CABLE. serves me right. thanx to them for costing me a $175 service call. but after the hum disappeared the remaining noise was definately feedback, being caused by too close of placement to my speakers. a simple change in placement, a couple of new rca/rca connectors and i am, how did you put it, in "nirvana". i could cry right now i'm so happy!

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #87 on: 5 Jun 2009, 01:16 am »
Allright - a good ending.  Or, is that a beginning? :scratch: :thumb:

You might be sobbing if you try the 3" maple block underneath aa

John

ryno

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #88 on: 8 Jun 2009, 12:04 am »
Hi guys,
I'm one of those, have a couple boxes of albums in the basement, guys. Most were played once and recorded onto tape. In high school, the car was the only place to really listen to music. Jump to now, and I just bought a new receiver for my bedroom system. I plan on skipping the CD player, and getting a dedicated Ipod for a psuedo server. I also thought it would be fun to get a turntable. I'm not looking for better than CD sound, just something fun and easy. I might end up getting hooked on vinyl, then I'll get a nice setup for my main system. I might end up pulling out an LP every other week and being happy with the bedroom system. From some thread here I bookmarked this http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN
From the same place I saw this
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=DENDP0300F&Category_Code=DENONTTB
Close to the same price, both have a built in pre, the denon is belt and auto. The price is right, is it worth doing?
Thanks, Ryan

Rocket

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #89 on: 8 Jun 2009, 12:34 pm »
Hi Guys,

I'm hoping that you can help me out regarding a turntable.  I have a very unreliable turntable that I will be selling as soon as I fix it.  It has cost me so much in time and money over the past 7 years that I'm fed up with it.

I can get an audionote tt1 for $1500AU shipped here to perth. 

Does anyone have any experience with this turntable?  Does it sound good?  Is it reliable?

Regards

Rod

Wayner

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #90 on: 8 Jun 2009, 01:37 pm »
Ryno,

I've heard that the AT had some hum issues. I have heard nothing (good or bad) on the Denon. At $329 for the Denon, could you spring a little more and get a Technics SL-1200mkII? That is a very well made table, direct drive. Good bang for the buck table, and if sometime you don't like it, it will be easy to sell.

Wayner

ryno

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #91 on: 9 Jun 2009, 04:07 am »
Thanks for the response Wayner,
I did look at the technics, that plus having to get a pre is more money and fuss than I want for a bedroom system. If I spend that much, I might as well up it a little more and get a table for the main system. I'm not sure I want to go that far without trying a budget setup first.
Ryan

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #92 on: 9 Jun 2009, 04:44 am »
ryno,

The Audio Technica was reported by TONE Audio to sound good...better than the Technics SL-1200 in stock form.  But, I have heard there are QA issues.

If LPGear actually checks how it's working for you for the $299.00 it's probably worthwhile to try.  However, be forewarned, the built in preamp is probably horrendous and that in itself may leave you short of loving vinyl in totality.

Better that you buy an old receiver with built-in phono to use for your little system in the bedroom I think...along with the AT or Technics deck.

John

Wayner

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #93 on: 9 Jun 2009, 12:07 pm »
Most of the AT is built from Technics parts. Unless Technics QC is worse than AT, I don't know how the AT table could sound better. If anything, they would sound the same.

Wayner

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #94 on: 9 Jun 2009, 02:54 pm »
Most of the AT is built from Technics parts. Unless Technics QC is worse than AT, I don't know how the AT table could sound better. If anything, they would sound the same.

Wayner

Cheaper parts reproduced in China, not Japan, likely and some deficit in line manufacturing QA could account for sonic differences and defect rates.

Two parts I understand is plastic on the AT is rubber on the Technics. The top-plate and bottom base in the tri-ply affair of these models is different.  My strong suspicion of the Technics sonic failings center on those rubber pieces ('dark', 'overdamped' have been descriptions that I and others apply to the Technics). 

So, substituting plastic for rubber here may make the AT sonically sound better (tho less feedback resistant)
 
There is a family relationship between Audio-Technica and Matsushita (same family, Matsushita, started both companies but they are independent entities today), but I don't know of a reciprocal arrangement between the two companies.

Most likely, the AT-PL120 is a (mostly well done) Chinese knock-off of the venerable Technics SL-1200....and not a collaboration between the two companies.

That's my take on it, at least  :)

ryno: 229 reviews on the AT-PL120 on Amazon for you to read up on.  It'll give you a good overview of it's foibles, failures and strengths from a good cross section of owners/users: http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-PL120-Professional-Direct-Drive-Turntable/product-reviews/B00012EYNG/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

John 

weirdo

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #95 on: 9 Jun 2009, 05:07 pm »
In the face of good advice from Waner and company, I went ahead and made a huge mistake anyway. I was picking up my new tube integrated ( Rogue Cronus ),and "accidentally" bought a Music Hall 2.1 for a good price fropm my dealer who is a very nice guy and good salesman. 

Just shoot me, make it a head shot, no pain.

After a couple months of screwing around with this and that cart, building my own wall mount, trying every conceivable vibration isolation scheme you can think of, what I ended up with is a season ticket in the middle of Mediochre, Pa. 

After listining to a few LP's, I got sucked back into the magic and thought how much better it would sound if I had just saved my shackles and moved up to a nice deck.
 
Moral: If you want a vinyl playback system that sounds better than CD's, digs deeply into the music and has standout fspatial presentation, save your money and jump right into the mid level tables. If you are going cheap, consider a Technics and a good cart. Futzing around in the nether world of economy equipment will just ............lead to agnst.

Humble Pie "Rockin the Filmore"  good God, what a record.   

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #96 on: 9 Jun 2009, 05:14 pm »
I'm sorry to hear this, weirdo :(

Put a thick maple block under that table and it might improve a bit.  It's an item you can continue to use with good results if you choose (as we hope you do not abandon vinyl) a new, upgraded TT in the future.

The maple block won't fix ills of shabby mdf platter, poor quality bearings, inexpensive/low torque motor and all else that may be the root cause of bad sound from your MMF-2.1, but it'll reduce feedback from your supports from entering into your sonic chain.

I bought mine on ebay from a Dawns Depot and it's under $100 with shipping from her.

Sorry my man...  :cry:...but, don't give up the good fight.

John

weirdo

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #97 on: 9 Jun 2009, 05:45 pm »
Thanks brother, No way will I give up the fight. I might however, consider the cheap gear a mistake, put on the gloves and get back in the ring.
I see a higher level set-up in my future.
I'm one of those guys that does no like to overspend. This is a good trait, but in stereo gear, when you go cheap instead of quality budget, you can get into trouble. Life is for living and learning I guess. 
I'm having way too much fun listening to my friends LP's to give up on vinyl.  He feeds me about 50 lp's every couple of months from his old collection. Some survived well, others are warped and scratched, all traceable to specific dorm parties and celebrations involving the green leaf.   I clean them up and play them . I was never into rock in a big way, being a student of jazz and classical, but I'm enjoying a bunch of stuff now. ELO, Doobies,etc. My home made wall stand will not support a good maple block so in one last attempt at sonic refinement and for the continuing amusement of my wife,  I will take it offl the wall and set it upon the butcher block.  thanks dk

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #98 on: 9 Jun 2009, 06:08 pm »
Hey, I didn't realize (or, remember) that you had it on a wall shelf already.  If so, than a maple block underneath may not be of benefit to you.

I just wanted to intercept before you plunged in and spent another $100 on a lost TT cause  :(

Nothing wrong with being mindful of your finite funds...sometimes it works out the way you need it to and other times not  :|

John

Wayner

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #99 on: 9 Jun 2009, 11:15 pm »
Here are a few of my recommended LP's to show off a TT:

Freidmann - Indian Summer
Supertramp - Brother, where you bound?
Pink Floyd - The Division Bell
Andreas Vollenweider - White Winds, or Dancing with the Lion.

Wayner