Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in

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Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #60 on: 5 Mar 2009, 04:24 am »
LOMC..........  :scratch:

I tried to Google it:

LOMC= Letter of Map Change
LOMC= Lutheran Outdoor Ministries Center (Oregon, Illinois)
LOMC= Logistics Operations Management Center
LOMC= Low-Octane Mogas Component

Somehow I doubt any of that fits here?  :dunno:

doorman

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #61 on: 5 Mar 2009, 04:56 am »
low output moving coil.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #62 on: 5 Mar 2009, 02:30 pm »
Thank you Don.  :thumb:

TheChairGuy

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #63 on: 5 Mar 2009, 03:57 pm »
Thank you Don.  :thumb:

Bob's puzzled question on 'LOMC' is why we want this topic to be as simple as possible.  We have our own language in vinyl-land, and it takes considerable time and effort for newbies to understand it.  As life is pretty stressful and full of deadlines, most newbies will look at it like learning Mandarin...and likely leave before taking it on.

Let's keep this post as simple as possible.  Spell out what you mean - LOMC, VTA, VTF, W&F, 20cu, the Grado 'dance', etc are terms hard for newbies (even experienced folks) to wrap their minds around :(  We want more folks involved in vinyl - we know it's the highest resolution format of music available - and without new arrivals it'll die for certain.

Thx, John

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #64 on: 5 Mar 2009, 05:15 pm »
Yes. Speak down to us like we're idiots. Cause we are.  :wink:

ratso

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #65 on: 5 Mar 2009, 05:53 pm »
i'm in the medical field and whenever someone wants something explained to them, a frequent scenario is this: doctor comes in to room, tries to explain what is going on to patient. patient has no idea what the hell is going on after having it explained to them but is too embarrassed to say so. after doctor leaves, they say to me "what did he say?". i then explain it to them, trying to keep in mind 'how would i explain this to my 11 year old daughter'. this approach does not offend people, and they don't feel talked down to - they appreciate being actually able to finally understand what is going on.

low.pfile

Newbie TT setup question: Ground wire
« Reply #66 on: 21 Mar 2009, 05:05 am »
This is a newbie TT setup question. 

I was surprised by this when it happened to me tonight.

TT ground wires are often too short or not properly connected which usually causes hum problems. So today I received a new (to me) tube phono amp and used the same ground wire that I had used with my other phono amp.  There was major speaker hum with this tube phono amp in my system- the hum was about 12db (@54.5 - 43db ambient). My SS phono amp has zero hum.

I started looking up alternate connection options online. I also disconnected and reconnected all the TT cables. It was still there. Tried connecting the phono amp power to my CIAudio DC filter- the same hum. Attempting another connection for the ground. I completely disconnected the wire from the phono amp and turned on the system - NO HUM. Zero.

Questions:

1. So I had no idea that I could run the TT without connecting the ground wire.  Is it typically optional?

2. Is the phono amp or integrated amp/ receiver the only device that sould be used for the other end of the ground wire?

3. What is the best type of wire to use to make a replacement or extension ground wire?

Thanks, and hope this helps other vinyl newbies.

James Romeyn

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #67 on: 21 Mar 2009, 05:14 am »
This is a two part question;
- If a fella wanted to venture into the world of vinyl (and had a TT already), what's a good cheap inexpensive DIY phono preamp project to start with (Bottlehead Seduction???). Preferably tubed. Something that's reasonably respected in the vinyl community, and could be considered a "keeper" for a long period of time. Meaning something that sounds good enough and won't HAVE TO be upgraded anytime soon due to "less than desirable" sound quality. But, that being said, modability to something nicer down the road would be a definite advantage.
- Next; What with this moving coil/moving magnet thing and how do you know what you've got. I've asked this question before, and was given good answers, but it apparently didn't sink in since I didn't remember it. Apparently, preamp choice depends on the type of cartridge you have?? I think.

Good thread Larry and John. You vinyl guys have managed to drag me (kicking and screaming) into wanting vinyl a few times but so far you haven't succeeded. I've been able to resist your dangling carrots.  :wink:
Although I am the proud owner of an AR-XA that sounded pretty impressive on a buddy's pair of Maggies.

Thanks guys!
Bob

Bob
Bill Berndt's DIY tube MM phono preamp parts cost about $150 IIRC (but don't quote me).  It sounded absolutely fantastic when I heard it several weeks ago.  It's on my to do list if I decide to go back to RIAA (currently using straingauge cartridge & demodulator).  I heard Bill's preamp w/ low-output MC & old Altec transformer step-up.  It really kicked buttooski.     

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #68 on: 21 Mar 2009, 11:52 am »
Hey Jim, that's good information to know. When I'm ready to venture back into TT's, I'll look him up.
Is there a thread about it somewhere?

Thank you!
Bob

James Romeyn

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #69 on: 22 Mar 2009, 12:13 am »
Hey Jim, that's good information to know. When I'm ready to venture back into TT's, I'll look him up.
Is there a thread about it somewhere?

Thank you!
Bob

No idea if Bill posted about that preamp.  Readers may recognize his name & contact him as the Bay Area facileee-tater (& such a great one ideeed)! 


Rocket

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #70 on: 22 Mar 2009, 01:20 am »
Hi,

Okay I'm still having problems with my turntable setup and I hope I can get some advice.  After replacing the motor, then finding out the new motor was slightly different which caused the pulley to sit too high on the platter (made the turntable unplayable).

I decided to contact bluenote and they supplied me with a few parts and advised placing washers under the platter to raise the platter.  I did this but then the tonearm was sitting too low.  Bluenote told me how to raise the tonearm to ensure that the vertical tracking angle was okay.  I installed a new lifting mechanism for the tonearm to make it easier to use, a new bluenote babele high output moving cartridge and a friend engineered a spacer instead of using the washers to raise the platter (the washers were not even enough and cause further problems).

I bought an ortofon cartridge alignment tool and tracking force guage.  I levelled the tonearm so that it was horizontal with the record but then the cartridge was not level and I decided to use the bottom of the cartridge for my aligning vertical tracking angle.  I now have the cartridge horizontal to the record.  The last time I fitted a cartridge was about 20 years ago and I would like a little bit of help to ensure that I have it aligned correctly (any advice is greatly appreciated).

I now a lot of surface noise that I didn't have using a denon dl103, turntable's platter sits at the right height, I think I have the vta and cartridge aligned correctly.  Btw the cartridge vertical tracking force is 1.4 gram.  Turn the record on and older records it sounds really bad.  There is so much surface noise that it makes it unpleasant to listen to.  I think perhaps my older records just need a good clean.  I can't afford a record cleaning machine because the cheapest in australia is about $750au in Australia.

I'm thinking of purchasing G.E.M. Dandy Hydraulic Record Cleaning Apparatus.  Has anyone used it?  It sells for $200au here in Australia?

1.  Can anyone provide information regarding cartridge alignment?  I think I have vta correct?
2.  Would a 1.4 tracking force provide more surface noise?

Regards

Rod

low.pfile

Re: Newbie TT setup question: Ground wire
« Reply #71 on: 23 Mar 2009, 03:16 pm »
Hey all,

I am still curious about these ground wire questions:


This is a newbie TT setup question. 

I was surprised by this when it happened to me tonight.

TT ground wires are often too short or not properly connected which usually causes hum problems. So today I received a new (to me) tube phono amp and used the same ground wire that I had used with my other phono amp.  There was major speaker hum with this tube phono amp in my system- the hum was about 12db (@54.5 - 43db ambient). My SS phono amp has zero hum.

I started looking up alternate connection options online. I also disconnected and reconnected all the TT cables. It was still there. Tried connecting the phono amp power to my CIAudio DC filter- the same hum. Attempting another connection for the ground. I completely disconnected the wire from the phono amp and turned on the system - NO HUM. Zero.

Questions:

1. So I had no idea that I could run the TT without connecting the ground wire.  Is it typically optional?

2. Is the phono amp or integrated amp/ receiver the only device that should be used for the other end of the ground wire?

3. What is the best type of wire to use to make a replacement or extension ground wire?


Thanks, and hope this helps other vinyl newbies.



ed

bacobits1

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #72 on: 23 Mar 2009, 04:52 pm »
Ed,
I'm not an expert but have been doing this for some time. I have always had a turntable in my system.

1. Apparently you were creating a ground loop and getting the hum. I would say yes, the ground is optional. I get no difference here with it connected or not. It is not a dangerous situation.A tube Phono Pre can be a little more noisy than Soild State Phono Pre.

Lifting the ground on a power cable using a "cheater plug" may be dangerous in that situation. I would say that is a last resort solution.

2. You typically connect the ground to what your tonearm interconnects are connected to. Either the receiver or Phono Pre amp. I have 2 ground wires, one is on the bearing and the other the Tonearm cables. The bearing wire bleeds off any static pops and clicks through the spindle. I have an acrylic platter that can build up static from the album. Both of these wires are connected to the Phono Pre ground post.

3.The ground wire just needs to be a stranded copper 14-16-18 Ga. That is all I have ever seen being used usually a spade connector on the end. You can also use a bare tinned wire with no problem.

I hope this helps you out.

D

low.pfile

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #73 on: 24 Mar 2009, 06:46 am »
Thanks bacobits1 for the info,

I figured I had a ground loop issue. really surprised that the other pre didn't do the same since they were both connected to the same power outlet (outlet is a belkin power center). will try a few different power outlet configs.

cheers,
ed

bacobits1

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #74 on: 24 Mar 2009, 01:56 pm »
I'm using a Brick Wall 8 outlet AUD version for many years now.
If I plug the amp into it and everything else (all tubes) I get a low level hum. I won't use a "cheater" plug on the amp. If I plug the amp in the wall where it is now it's dead quiet. Go figure.
You just never know when or where this will pop up. In my other houses I never had a problem in 10 years where I plugged anything. Lots of equipment changes too.

Den
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2009, 10:07 pm by bacobits1 »

ratso

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #75 on: 30 May 2009, 10:33 pm »
since i last chimed in here, i have also been fighting the dreaded ground loop hum. actually nothing new to me, i have ALWAYS been fighting this battle (at least since i have decided to go to a tube preamp). i think as of yesterday i have the problem licked, but when i got rid of the hum and could actually hear my TT, i realized i have another noise buried under all that hum. it is rumble? doing a quick google search has lead me to find out that it is a common occurrence in TT's and usually comes from the bearings? to make sure this is really what i have, let me point out that i hear it most easily without a record playing. i don't really notice any rumble with an album on (but that may be because the music covers it up). i have read that there are 'rumble filters' that you can buy, anyone have any experience with these/suggestions?

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #76 on: 30 May 2009, 11:00 pm »
The only "rumble filters" I've heard of have to do with subwoofer amplifiers.
I'm not a vinyl guy, so that's about as far as I can take you.

Bob

andyr

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #77 on: 30 May 2009, 11:13 pm »

since i last chimed in here, i have also been fighting the dreaded ground loop hum. actually nothing new to me, i have ALWAYS been fighting this battle (at least since i have decided to go to a tube preamp). i think as of yesterday i have the problem licked, but when i got rid of the hum and could actually hear my TT, i realized i have another noise buried under all that hum. it is rumble? doing a quick google search has lead me to find out that it is a common occurrence in TT's and usually comes from the bearings? to make sure this is really what i have, let me point out that i hear it most easily without a record playing. i don't really notice any rumble with an album on (but that may be because the music covers it up). i have read that there are 'rumble filters' that you can buy, anyone have any experience with these/suggestions?


In the old days, some preamps or receivers (having integrated phono stages) would have a "rumble filter".  This is simply a high-pass filter which rolls off the low frequencies - like from 20hz downwards.

However, these filters do not act like a "brick wall" ... they start their roll-off much higher than 20hz.  :o

Thus, using a rumble filter will mean you will start losing the bass from your music  :( ... so can I suggest if you like music, a much better solution is to change the bearing on your TT or swap it for one that doesn't have any rumble.

And, no, I wouldn't say it's a "common" occurence.  Certainly not something which is an intrinsic part of listening to vinyl.  :D

Regards,

Andy

Wayner

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #78 on: 31 May 2009, 12:52 pm »
low.pfile, the reason turntables are grounded is because the cartridge has such low voltage going into a phono preamp that has lots of gain, and the metal tonearm assembly can act like a gigantic antenna, picking up all kinds of noise, then amplifying it. Hense, the ground wire.

I suspect you are creating a ground loop as well. One thing to check if you have a volt/ohm meter is to set the meter on continuity check and see if the tonearm body is electrically connected to the RCA plugs shield of either the left or right channels. If so, the ground wire is a duplication of ground and has 2 different potentials of current passage. That will create a ground loop. If there is no continuity, and you have no hum with the ground wire off, then leave it off. Another thing to try is to not connect the ground wire to the phono preamp, but connect it to the preamp or receiver you are using.

Let us know the outcome.

Wayner :)

ratso

Re: Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in
« Reply #79 on: 31 May 2009, 01:56 pm »
thank you andy for that! i wasn't trying to imply that rumbling was intrinsic, i guess i shouldn't have used the word 'common'. i was more trying to say that it seems it is a known phenomena in the land of TT's. i am suprised that my brand new TT has it though, it is certainly not the 'top of the line' (project debut III) but comes from a pretty well respected company. maybe i just got a bad one? should i take it in for service (not much of a DIY'er) - i have also read online many people don't seem to have much luck with fixing the bearings?