[Wind Chaser]

In response to THIS POST...  I took the liberty to respond with the following...

Wait a minute... if you are suggesting Danny Richie designs the crossovers for Skiing Ninja... that is wrong!

Skiing Ninja / Sean Parque is located in Wellington, Colorado.  Danny Richie / GR Research is 700 miles southeast located in Iowa Park, Texas.

From the "About Us" page of Skiing Ninja

Skiing Ninja Systems started in May of 2006 after years of Sean's involvement in the audio world. Many of you may know the name Sean Parque and many may be hearing it for the first time, but either way if it was not for his passion to great sound none of us would be here. Sean's upgraded crossovers and speakers found their way to a few others and they loved what they heard. People wanted to have the upgraded crossovers for themselves and started calling them the 'Ninja Crossovers'.

BTW, don't read too much into specs or assume anything about Danny's work.  Two years ago I laughed, mocked and criticized one of his designs on his forum... but when I finally had a chance to hear them, I was smitten.  Danny's work is impeccable and untouchable.  His least expensive speakers will put to shame most things out there because of the extraordinary performance to value ratio.  Simply put, GR Research, although little known, is the definitive, butt kicking, highest of the high value speaker company on the planet.

[bunnyma357]

There may also be some confusion, since some Ninja upgrades are new designs ("Master" level), and some use the original design and just upgrade the component quality ("Elite" level). So an Elite level may be an enhanced Danny design (depending on the speaker), since he designed the original circuit and values which are still used, just with new better quality parts.

Also some new Master level designs were done by Danny for Skiing Ninja, like the AV123 Ref 1, so there is some collaboration between the two companies that leads to the confusion.

http://www.skiingninja.com/Reference-1-upgrades-p/ref1.htm

Quoted from the link above on the Skiing Ninja website:

"Network Type
Unlike anything you have seen yet for the Reference 1, the Reference 1 Ninja Master is completely new.  The network has been re-engineered from the ground up.

Developed by Danny Richie of GR Research exclusively for Skiing Ninja, the benefits of the Reference 1 Ninja Master crossover are:

 Smooooth!
 Balanced amplitude.
 Higher and easier to drive impedance load.
 Control the resonance break-up mode of the woofer.
 Maintain a clean spectral decay (no stored energy).
 Higher degree of phase accuracy.
 Consistent off axis response both vertically and horizontally.
 Installs into both the Reference 1 MkI and Reference 1 MkII loudspeakers. "


Jim C

[HT cOz]

I'm totally missing the point of this post.

[Wind Chaser]

I'm totally missing the point of this post.

If you look at the context, it seems to suggest that Danny is the Skiing Ninja and that he isn't entirely competent at designing crossovers, despite the "This post is not to degrade Danny..." claim.  Utter nonsense and I felt it should be checked.

[Stereodude]

If you look at the context, it seems to suggest that Danny is the Skiing Ninja and that he isn't entirely competent at designing crossovers, despite the "This post is not to degrade Danny..." claim.  Utter nonsense and I felt it should be checked.

But you seem to be missing the fact that Danny has in fact designed most of the Skiing Ninja crossovers.  Some are all new designs of Danny's sold by Sean (750's, REF-1, etc).  Others are versions of Danny's original design where the parts have been swapped out for superior ones (760, 450, RS200 Sig, RS850/1000 Sig, etc).

[cujobob]

I believe all of the crossovers at SN are Dannys designs...

I'd love to hear Dannys response to Dennis' comment in the other thread though.  I've never heard it said that one of his designs were bright...even as subjective as that can be.

[dvenardos]

I'd love to hear Dannys response to Dennis' comment in the other thread though.  I've never heard it said that one of his designs were bright...even as subjective as that can be.

I believe it is referring to this comment:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41724.msg372740#msg372740

[Danny Richie]

I believe all of the crossovers at SN are Dannys designs...

Yes sir.

Many upgrades are on designs that I did do for AV123. The network design did not change, just the parts quality. Some are upgrades that I did for Skiing Ninja and are only offered through Skiing Ninja.

Sean does a very good job assembling them and I highly recommend his work. Furthermore, I am discontinuing offing assembled networks for our kits and will be directing people to Sean to have them assembled. I simply am too busy with design work to take a step back and do assembly. Sean does a great job, likes doing it, and has time to do it. His prices will also be no higher that I charge and he may even make some adjustments for shipping cost to insure that it does not get more expensive to use his services.

I'd love to hear Dannys response to Dennis' comment in the other thread though.

It appears that Dennis does not understand the design choices used in the M22 re-design. I don't really know what to say about that. If Dennis or anyone else really wants to know details or specifics as to why it is what it is then I will be glad to explain.

Secondly, I Hate a bright sounding speakers with a capital H. Cone break up, especially those associated with metal cones, are another pet peeve. Even if they are fairly well controlled I am still very sensitive to the ringing. So if I design or re-design an upgrade for something you can rest assured that it won't have those characteristics.

[The Ninja]

A quick note from 'The Ninja'

On the 'about us' page, I am referring to a component upgrade only.  I did not design the network.  It was the 'a-ha' moment when I realized what a big difference component quality makes. 

Every network that Skiing Ninja currently sells are Danny's designs.  100%

[The Ninja]

I posted a few responses in the thread.  I decided to not get into the 'off-axis' comments as apparently everyone there sits at 0 degrees on axis and never off axis. 

I also find it amusing that anytime someone quotes a price for one of our networks, they choose the highest priced item over anything else.  To me it seems like they are trying to make it a little more dramatic than need be.  I almost want to offer the same quality level with the new design just so we have that option but I simply can't put my name on a product that looks like this:



I know the appearance of a network does not betray its quality level but the electrolytics and sand cast resistors just sound really, really bad to me. 

In the end, it's all good.  I enjoy what I do and my customers enjoy the experience.

Thanks,

Sean

[The Ninja]

Danny,

I plan on re-working the Axiom page with a bit more info as this isn't the first time I've seen it come up where someone does not understand or has preconceived notions about a design or parts quality or whatever.  I'd love to hear what you personally have to say about the design choices here.  I think it would at least let some understand the thought process and why things were done the way they were done.

If you would rather not, that is OK too.

Thanks,

It appears that Dennis does not understand the design choices used in the M22 re-design. I don't really know what to say about that. If Dennis or anyone else really wants to know details or specifics as to why it is what it is then I will be glad to explain.

[Kevin Haskins]

I posted a few responses in the thread.  I decided to not get into the 'off-axis' comments as apparently everyone there sits at 0 degrees on axis and never off axis. 

I also find it amusing that anytime someone quotes a price for one of our networks, they choose the highest priced item over anything else.  To me it seems like they are trying to make it a little more dramatic than need be.  I almost want to offer the same quality level with the new design just so we have that option but I simply can't put my name on a product that looks like this:



I know the appearance of a network does not betray its quality level but the electrolytics and sand cast resistors just sound really, really bad to me. 

In the end, it's all good.  I enjoy what I do and my customers enjoy the experience.

Thanks,

Sean

Hey... at least they got them all crammed together tight on the PCB for a short signal path.   

[Danny Richie]

I think too many people fail to realize that you don't really just hear the on axis response. You hear the "in room" response. That in room response is a combination of on and off axis plus room reflections.

The room reflections are not a controlled variable but the speakers off axis response is.

Even JA at Stereophile has recently added more off axis measurements and a room response measurement to his standards.

Another thing to note is that in just about any room response measurement you'll see a dropping off in the top octave even if the speaker is measured on axis. I guess most people have just not done any or seen enough of these to know about the room effects.

Most overlooked and one of the more telling of what the in room response will be is the vertical off axis response. This off axis response will be a large contributing factor to the room response. Floors are often carpeted and will help to attenuate the top octave, but ceilings are largely overlooked and are a huge reflection point. I think a lot of people would be real surprised at the disrupted vertical off axis responses of their favorite speakers and what the ceiling reflection looks like. And typically the vertical off axis is the most overlooked of all measurements.

What's really ironic is how everyone always shows one or two horizontal off axis responses in their measurements and side wall reflections vary greatly from room to room. Then we rarely see vertical off axis measurements but a ceiling reflection is almost a constant (varying only some with height).

[Kevin Haskins]

I think too many people fail to realize that you don't really just hear the on axis response. You hear the "in room" response. That in room response is a combination of on and off axis plus room reflections.

The room reflections are not a controlled variable but the speakers off axis response is.

Even JA at Stereophile has recently added more off axis measurements and a room response measurement to his standards.

Another thing to note is that in just about any room response measurement you'll see a dropping off in the top octave even if the speaker is measured on axis. I guess most people have just not done any or seen enough of these to know about the room effects.

Most overlooked and one of the more telling of what the in room response will be is the vertical off axis response. This off axis response will be a large contributing factor to the room response. Floors are often carpeted and will help to attenuate the top octave, but ceilings are largely overlooked and are a huge reflection point. I think a lot of people would be real surprised at the disrupted vertical off axis responses of their favorite speakers and what the ceiling reflection looks like. And typically the vertical off axis is the most overlooked of all measurements.

What's really ironic is how everyone always shows one or two horizontal off axis responses in their measurements and side wall reflections vary greatly from room to room. Then we rarely see vertical off axis measurements but a ceiling reflection is almost a constant (varying only some with height).

I'd argue, that the vertical is far less important than the horizontal.    So it isn't just a matter of showing measurements, but knowing how to rank their importance.   

[Danny Richie]

I'd argue, that the vertical is far less important than the horizontal. So it isn't just a matter of showing measurements, but knowing how to rank their importance.

I don't know that I'd say one was more or less important. I have measured in room responses of a couple of speakers that both had really flat on axis response and the horizontal was good on both of them, but one had sever cancellations in the vertical and its room response showed it pretty easily.

Like I said, those side wall reflections vary greatly from room to room, but that ceiling and floor reflection are always there.

BTW, the off axis responses on that last little mini-monitor that you did looked great.

[Danny Richie]

On the M22 upgrade:

I am surprised more at what is overlooked by everyone. Check out the impedance sweep:

https://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-z-comparison-lg.jpg

In the original it drops to 2 ohms! Yea, lets hook a bunch of those all up to a cheapy receiver and see how it likes it.

Okay looking at the horizontal off axis:

https://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-hfr-comparison-lg.jpg

The average output below 1kHz verses the average above 8kHz is within 1db. It looks like there is more of a rise at 8kHz and up because of the purposely dialed in dipped area in the 3 to 4kHz range. This was done on purpose to offset a slight rise in the 30 to 40 degrees off axis response in that range. So the overall in room response should be very consistent.

This speaker wasn't bright at all or I would have really hated it. If some ones gear is overly bright then the speaker can easily be adjusted with one resistor change to help cover up the problem.

The other real improvements were made to removing the break-up of that metal cone woofer (that was rough) and improving the vertical off axis response. Obviously there is now a lower crossover point and better phase relation with the drivers.

https://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-xo-comparison-lg.jpg
https://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-vfr-comparison-lg.jpg

On a completely different note, I can't believe those guys over there are even making that comparison in the Salk circle. Just pull the network out of each of them and take a pic of it. That will really tell the tell. In fact, that would be kind of funny. Then just look at the quality of the drivers and the workmanship of the cabinets. It looks like a no brianer to me. Need I say more?

[Kevin Haskins]

I'd argue, that the vertical is far less important than the horizontal. So it isn't just a matter of showing measurements, but knowing how to rank their importance.

I don't know that I'd say one was more or less important.

I'll say it then.   The vertical is less important.       

Why?   I don't know.   You could argue from a couple different standpoints.   God didn't put ears on our chins and foreheads.   They are horizontally spaced on our heads.   You could also argue it from an evolutionary standpoint.   We had lions and tigers and bears chasing us on the horizontal plane but the Terradactyl and killer groundhogs where all dead at the time and we didn't have to worry about getting eaten from above or below. 

Whatever the reason it is less important from a listener standpoint.   Just think of how an MTM can sound on the horizontal axis vs. placed on the vertical.     

   

[Rick Craig]

I posted a few responses in the thread.  I decided to not get into the 'off-axis' comments as apparently everyone there sits at 0 degrees on axis and never off axis. 

I also find it amusing that anytime someone quotes a price for one of our networks, they choose the highest priced item over anything else.  To me it seems like they are trying to make it a little more dramatic than need be.  I almost want to offer the same quality level with the new design just so we have that option but I simply can't put my name on a product that looks like this:



I know the appearance of a network does not betray its quality level but the electrolytics and sand cast resistors just sound really, really bad to me. 

In the end, it's all good.  I enjoy what I do and my customers enjoy the experience.

Thanks,

Sean

The caps in the picture are epoxy-encased film caps, not electrolytics. Probably mylar film.

[The Ninja]

Thank you for the note Rick.  I should rip one open and check it out to be sure. 

Thanks again!

Sean

The caps in the picture are epoxy-encased film caps, not electrolytics. Probably mylar film.

[Danny Richie]

Rick, what are you doing here?

Okay Kevin, I'll bit on this one...

Just think of how an MTM can sound on the horizontal axis vs. placed on the vertical.

Spin it around on the tweeter axis and it measures the same regardless of how it is arranged. But, put it next to a wall and measure it from a distance with it vertical and with it horizontal and the measurements might look a bit different.

We may have ears on the left and on the right of our heads but the ceiling and floor reflections can be pretty significant in what we hear. Try stipping the carpet off your floor and see how it sounds.

Even if I gave more weight to the left and right off axis responses, I'd still be concerned with the vertical.

I also especially hate it when you stand up and just that difference in height creates a phase misalignment of the drivers and causes a huge dip.

BTW, Kevin, you are always welcome.