Bought SongTowers; best path to take for computer audio playback?

jglim0109 · « **on:** 20 Feb 2009, 01:19 am »

I ordered a pair of SongTowers and will be using my computer for music playback. All my music is in FLAC already. I have a 5 year old laptop with whatever internal soundcard it came with (it most likely is not very good because I don't remember upgrading it when I bought it). I also have a Yamaha HTR-5450 receiver that is now 7 years old. That's it.

As far as spending money wisely, what's the best way to use a computer for music? Should I buy a soundcard or a USB DAC? Invest in an amp and just play through my computer as is? Combination of things?

Any suggestions please. I would like to keep this as cheap as possible, but don't want to sacrifice sound quality trying to save a couple hundred bucks if it will make a significant improvement.

Thanks. I've already searched for older discussions but there didn't seem to be any consensus and some were 2 or 3 years old by now.

Zero · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 01:28 am »

My advice? With a slight exception to the latest generation of Macbook's, most Laptops are highly compromised with regard to sound quality. That said, there are two solid ways to go about this.

The first way involves buying the best DAC and AMP that you can afford for now. You won't need a pre-amp right away as you can use the laptop to control the volume. Add a pre-amp once you're in a comfortable financial position to do so.

The second way involves buying the best DAC and interegrated amp/stereo receiver that you can afford. Depending on the budget, this route is simpler and could yield some excellent results.

At the end of the day, this will boil down to a few things. First, how much money can you allocate towards new electronics? Second, do you want to buy new or used?

bigbwb · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 01:33 am »

I agree with Zero. For simplicity sake, a good integrated amp/pre and maybe a Squeezebox 3 to feed your FLAC files from the mac to the setup. I would personally spend most of the budget on the amp / preamp and whats left over on the source considering DAC's are very subjective.

Best of luck on your ST's! I just ordered mine this past weekend.

Brandon

adydula · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 02:51 am »

Hi!

You have to help me out here understanding why FLAC and dacs to amps etc...

Being old school, I buy CD's put them in a player connected to the rest of the system and voila great sound.

Why FLACS and the rest?

I know a computer can be used as a media center device and you can rip cds to FLAC format and then play with a FLAC player or other device or mechanisms...but is this sonically any better that playing the source cd???

I am thinking not, but the computer, squeezbox, usb dac stuff may be more versatile in storage and making sound available via ones own home intranet?

Thanks in advance
Alex

bigbwb · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:06 am »

Alex,

The beauty with streaming FLAC files from a pc to your setup is that you get lossless(CD quality) sound at your fingertips without having to flip discs constantly.

The squeezebox or similar player can stream these files wirelessly and you simply hook it up to your preamp/receiver via its digital or analog outs depending on which devices DACS you want to use. I love my SB3 and it sounds as good or better than most mid level CD players.

Hope ths helps,
Brandon

edit,

You can also store hundred of albums relatively cheaply on your pc and no worries with scratching your discs with lots of use. Sound quality of streaming FLAC compared to playing the disc is debatable depending on what source you go with. You will need a media streamer of some sort for this to work or run a audio output form the pc into the system which usually is not feasible.

pardales · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:18 am »

What's your budget?

adydula · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:25 am »

bigbwb,

Cool good reply..and I understand its a convenience thing...I did read that even FLAC is compressed, even though its a lossless format. Anything I hear that uses compression I am wary of. but sounds like many to play FLACS etc and like it very much...especially for the things you mentioned.

Thanks for the insight!! I feel enlightend !!

Alex

EDS_ · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:29 am »

Investigate using a Macbook using its USB out into an upconverting DAC that uses Delta Sigma conversion ( I think laptops are jittery as heck and Delta Sigma modualation quells jitter very well). I'd route that into a nice remote controlled integrated amp.

*Macbooks also sport optical SPDIF so if you buy a DAC with like inputs that is a second way to connect.

Good luck.

EDS_ · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:32 am »

Quote from: adydula on 20 Feb 2009, 03:25 am

bigbwb,

Cool good reply..and I understand its a convenience thing...I did read that even FLAC is compressed, even though its a lossless format. Anything I hear that uses compression I am wary of. but sounds like many to play FLACS etc and like it very much...especially for the things you mentioned.

Thanks for the insight!! I feel enlightend !!

Alex

Think of FLAC as lossless on the audio side.

I know this is high end herasey - but I cannot hear any SQ differences between AAC files and FLAC files.

bigbwb · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:37 am »

Alex,

FLAC files are lossless compression but must be seen as like a ZIP file, its compressed to save size but when opened its the EXACT same file either way.

There should be NO difference between a WAV(CD File) verse a FLAC file unless the decoding is being messed up---highly unlikely.

I have played original CD's and then the FLAC file in my setup and cannot tell the difference.

funkmonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:29 am »

Gotta chime in that computer based audio is "the sh!t"

I don't listen to CDs any more, I still buy plenty of them. They are ripped to FLAC, stored on an external hard drive, and streamed via ethernet cable to a Modwright modified Logitech Transporter (I don't like wireless, though I am certainly capable of connecting that way). By no means a budget solution, but the end result is sounding much better than the CD's themselves. As mentioned before, the Squeezebox is an inexpensive way to stream the audio. Some of the newer receivers offer an ethernet port (I'm not sure if they can stream audio from your computer, but it would seem to be a logical conclusion that they could). The cheapest solution would be to simply buy a 1/8" to RCA stereo cable and plug headphone out of the laptop into an available in on your Yammy. Rudimentary for sure, but it certainly works.

Truthfully the options are in their infancy, this is the brave new world of audio.

Good luck & cheers,
Greg

BoB/335 · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:34 am »

I have been told that if you burn a cd from a FLAC file that you get an EXACT copy of the original cd. FLAC certainly sounds like the way to go.

jglim0109 · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:51 am »

I forgot to mention: my laptop is not a mac.

Does this change anything?

jglim0109 · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:55 am »

Quote from: Zero on 20 Feb 2009, 01:28 am

My advice? With a slight exception to the latest generation of Macbook's, most Laptops are highly compromised with regard to sound quality. That said, there are two solid ways to go about this.

The first way involves buying the best DAC and AMP that you can afford for now. You won't need a pre-amp right away as you can use the laptop to control the volume. Add a pre-amp once you're in a comfortable financial position to do so.

The second way involves buying the best DAC and interegrated amp/stereo receiver that you can afford. Depending on the budget, this route is simpler and could yield some excellent results.

At the end of the day, this will boil down to a few things. First, how much money can you allocate towards new electronics? Second, do you want to buy new or used?

I don't mind buying used if there are some good deals out there. Any specific DAC and amp recommendations are welcome. I've looked at audiogon a few times but not a whole lot recently.

bzaggie · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:57 am »

I am also in a similar situation, I have a macbook right now but I am getting a pc for school reasons and to also have a desktop ( which is where i will be streaming the music from) that has a larger capacity to store all of my music as uncompressed files (FLAC). I am going to have the ht2 tl's in a couple weeks, I am using my denon 988 as the preamp and wyred for sound mono's for amplification. What are the advantages of the transporter over the just the squeezbox? If I were to use either of these would I run them to the denon as analog or as digital? Also funk why is this method better than Cd's? there is alot of info about this stuff and I seem to get confused hearing different things from different sources so im just trying to clear things up so i can make the right decision

funkmonkey · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 06:13 am »

If you go with a Transporter I would run the audio analog outs, balanced (XLR) if you can. Let it do the decoding/DAC.
As far as why it's better than CDs? Because I have well over 1,000 CDs (and still growing) that are at my fingertips. I don't need to get up from the couch, to change a disk. I can listen to one song, album, or a random mix of all the music I own, and can stream internet radio to boot. As far as sound quality... the Modwright mods introduce tubes into the mix which helps to present a less digital and more "live" sound. I got a good deal on the MW transporter, though it was still more than I thought I would spend on such a device, but it sounds great, and looks cool as hell. I won't be selling it any time soon. Do I think it's necessary to fully enjoy my music collection? Hell no. An iPod plugged into a set of available RCA in's on a receiver will work for that, or flipping through CDs, or perhaps LP's... It's all good. It comes down to what you want to put into your system. If you have very revealing speakers, then you will want to put way more care into what you feed them. If you have run-of-the-mill speakers then everything sounds about the same anyway and the cheapest solution would be fine, and as far as computer audio goes I think the Squeezebox is a great one for a couple of hundred bucks. I am hoping that they introduce a "smart playlist" (iTunes) like feature in the future (I miss that flexibility). They have a third party plug-in that has the functionality but it is a bit buggy, and gave me some problems so I'll wait for a "squeeze"-release...

fsimms · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 03:25 pm »

If you go with a Transporter I would run the audio analog outs, balanced (XLR) if you can. Let it do the decoding/DAC.

That might be the best solution generally, but he has a Denon as a preamp. I may be wrong but I think the Denon has an ADC that converts the signal into digital. Why not send the signal in digital so it can bypass that ADC. The Transporter DAC and the ADC in the Denon would just be an extra double conversion that couldn't help the sound.

Bob

hoxuanduc · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:13 pm »

Quote from: pardales on 20 Feb 2009, 03:18 am

What's your budget?

Like pardales said, it depends on budget...

Assuming you have a Win XP laptop and want to keep it, the easiest way is to get Foobar 2000 and ASIO4All for free. Then get a USB DAC to connect to your Yamaha

@ $30 - get the Behringer UCA 202
@ $100 - get the Nuforce Icon mobile or Fubar USB dac

Since the ST speakers are pretty efficient, if your room is not big, you may consider selling the Yamaha and get the Nuforce Icon USB dac/amp for about $200. It's very good...

Above that, well, then your options open up alot...

Good luck

Duc

mcgsxr · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:37 pm »

The Songtowers are around 88dB efficient, so I doubt the Ikon will drive them loud enough with 12wpc.

As you already have an amp, I would concentrate on getting a quality signal, cheaply, to the amp you have now, and then refine from there.

I see 2 good options, for under $500.

1 - Logitech unit - SB3 or Duet, your call. I have used an SB3 for years now (mine has been modded by Bolder), and recently bought a dedicated old desktop PC to use wired (ethernet) to the SB3. Dead simple, and cheap.

2 - USB DAC. There are lots of quality units out there, and would allow you to use the s/w combo suggested above to get all that good FLAC out of the PC, avoiding Kmixer, and driving good tunes to your amp.

Though I am very happy with my setup, for the cheapest, fastest way to get going, I would go with the USB DAC. You are likely able to get this done for under $200 including shipping, and cables etc.

Does that fit the budget?

If you find that the combo of your amp/speakers does not please, you can consider other options down the road, and likely resell the USB DAC.

In fact, I would troll Head-Fi for used USB DAC's, there are some gear hounds over there that might be playing around with configurations and be offloading exactly what you seek!

mcgsxr · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 04:47 pm »

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs-keces-da-151-usb-dac-price-added-409533/

Just noticed this one for sale, seems to have nice reviews for the $$.