The 300B: Is it worth it?

BossaNova31 · « **Reply #20 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 04:29 am »

To me the 300b is definitely worth it. I own a set of Manley 300b monoblocks that I am never parting with. The main challenge has been finding speakers that showcase the strengths of the 300b while minimizing the weaknesses. I currently have Omega Superhemps (not the latest Alnico version unfortunately) and find them to be a wonderful match for 300b tubes. Im eager to demo the Super 8 XRS in my system to see if Omega's top of the line single-driver speaker offers even better top to bottom balance.

In terms of tube prices, yes they can be VERY expensive. My monoblocks take 2 300bs each so I did a fair amount of research before settling on the Sophia carbon plates for my system. The improvement was very dramatic over the OEM supplied Electroharmonix especially in terms of dynamics and bass. I find them to be a very neutral tube, not overly romantic like the TJ mesh plates I tried with a 300b integrated I previously owned.

vett93 · « **Reply #21 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 04:35 am »

Quote from: dado5 on 8 Feb 2009, 03:57 am

It's not SET but it is 50 watts of 300b

http://canaryaudio.com/339.htm

Had one pair on loan to me for 6 months.... VERY nice indeed!

iGrant · « **Reply #22 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 04:40 am »

Quote from: dado5 on 8 Feb 2009, 03:57 am

Quote from: iGrant on 7 Feb 2009, 02:51 pm

Now if you can build a 50 watt 300B SET, you will rule the audio world

Cheers,
Ian

It's not SET but it is 50 watts of 300b

http://canaryaudio.com/339.htm

Now here is a 200 watt SET

Cheers,
Ian

Niteshade · « **Reply #23 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 11:30 am »

This is a very important question and there are other things to consider than sonics when choosing components to build with.

A previous thread from a few months ago was about 300B sonics. Those questions were discussed and answered with the best detail imaginable.

The 300B is expensive, AND SONICS ASIDE for now, price and longevity are issues to me and many others. People will not buy something without knowing the full story behind expensive components. No matter how good they sound, if it's not built right AND expensive- what's the use in utilizing it to make amplifiers other than for nostalgic reasons? This thread is about one word: Justification

Quote from: PaulFolbrecht on 8 Feb 2009, 04:11 am

You run a tube amp company and are asking if 300Bs are 'worth it' compared to KT88s - but not considering sonics?? What does that mean?

Any power triode, most especially a direct-heated triode, has a sound rather different than a pentode. You should listen and decide if they're worth it. Many of us find them quite superior, and the paper linearity of DHTs (and the subsequently simpler circuits) makes that sensible.

By the way, $200/pr is close to the low end of the scale. IMO the best 300Bs are EML and KR, both running significantly more than that but not nearly as much as NOS WEs.

Niteshade · « **Reply #24 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 11:38 am »

Hmmm... yes. BIG TUBE!

I had been thinking about using a 3-500Z in a SET configuration, but don't know how much horsepower it will deliver without forced air cooling. More research is required...

Triode Pete · « **Reply #25 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 02:28 pm »

With revealing & efficient speaker systems like Klipsch Heritage, Avantgarde & others, it's pretty easy to discern the differences between output tubes, especially on Single-Ended-Triode amplifiers.

The mesh plate 300B varieties (IMHO) that are made in China, sound "slow, sluggish and very lush (in a colored sense)". This includes the Sophia Electric 2A3 & 300B varieties that I "briefly" owned. If you think your system sounds "bright" (ie- you own Lowthers), you probably would like the mesh plates for a more romantic sound.

I currently own WE 300B's, KR 300B's, RCA 50's, Sylvania VT-10A's as well as Philco 10's. These all can be substituted on my SET 300B-50-10 convertible monoblocks. It's real easy, even for non-audiophiles, to hear the differences in the output tubes. I've also owned some push-pull pentode & tetrode amps and it's a night & day difference on sonics. For driver & input tubes, it's slightly more challenging to discern sonic differences, but you can actually measure different hum levels (mV's) with different input & driver tubes as well as microphonics. The 6SN7GTA & 6SN7GTB were designed for the television industry for higher output & longer life. They were not primarily designed for hi-fi applications and IMHO should be avoided unless your amplifier was designed around them (maybe in guitar amps for high distortion). The vintage 6SN7GT's, especially WWII varieties and early 1950's sound the best. (once again IMHO).

I have a lot more difficulty in hearing differences between speaker cables, interconnects and power cords, especially power cords. I don't think I'd pass a double-blind test when it comes to "wires".

My $0.02,

Pete

Niteshade · « **Reply #26 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 08:51 pm »

Hi Pete-

Yeah, there are several attractive 300b's on the market. Unfortunately their prices are stoked way up there. If the price is justified in longevity and sonics vs., say the $180.00/pair Electro Harmonix tubes, then it's worth it.

From what people say, the 300B has ALLOT of potential and I would like to see the prices fall on them so they could become mainstreamed. I don't know whether the prices are high due to artificial reasons or because not enough of them are purchased. I can understand why the specialty 300B's are expensive- but hopefully a large manufacturer will start to push more of them on the market. EH may be doing just that...I don't know.

Triode Pete · « **Reply #27 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 10:31 pm »

Blair,
Good point...The EH 300B's are a tube I can live with...I had a pair, very nice sounding...gave to my brother-in-law for his SET amps.

I checked out your website...very cool stuff! Keep up the great work! It's guys like you that make this hobby enjoyable. BTW, besides Baldwin, Hammond & Allen organ made some great amps suitable for hi-fi. My upstate NY buddy John Wiesner (Saratoga Cty) built me a pair of Hammond tone cabinet amps (2A3 push-pull parallel with UTC LS-58 output iron)...what slam & harmonics for a triode amp!

Isn't FX Marr brewery (Utica) near you in Rome? They make some great brew as well!

Cheers,
Pete

dado5 · « **Reply #28 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 02:01 pm »

Quote from: Niteshade on 8 Feb 2009, 08:51 pm

Hi Pete-

Yeah, there are several attractive 300b's on the market. Unfortunately their prices are stoked way up there. If the price is justified in longevity and sonics vs., say the $180.00/pair Electro Harmonix tubes, then it's worth it.

From what people say, the 300B has ALLOT of potential and I would like to see the prices fall on them so they could become mainstreamed. I don't know whether the prices are high due to artificial reasons or because not enough of them are purchased. I can understand why the specialty 300B's are expensive- but hopefully a large manufacturer will start to push more of them on the market. EH may be doing just that...I don't know.

As always, the consumers sets the price. Folks are simply willing to pay 4X or more over the cost of a EL or KT -whatever to play with a 300b. The market is not going to expand enough to bring prices down. The death of the SET niche is a far more likely market change. But even in that case I doubt prices will fall much. New manufacturers will just shut down production and the stock will dwindle. BEFORE the SET revival, you could pick up 300b's for nothing, literally (a manager I knew at Bell Labs still had two as "bookends" on a shelf in his office around 2001 - until I told him how much they were fetching on EBay). NOW, however, any post-SET future will still have a small cadre of straight-razor-shaving, gas-lamp-lighted, file-o-fax-date-keeping, two-stroke-Saab-driving hard cores who will keep the prices on the surviving 300b's in the stratosphere.

keith · « **Reply #29 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: Triode Pete on 8 Feb 2009, 02:28 pm

I currently own WE 300B's, KR 300B's, RCA 50's, Sylvania VT-10A's as well as Philco 10's.

Hi Pete. Just curious ... which triode is your favorite among all those you've owned or tried?

Keith

woodsyi · « **Reply #30 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 02:52 pm »

I said it's not worth it but I guess I will have to qualify my statement.

I do have a 300B amp that I use with a pair of 92 dB single driver speakers. It's wonderful but it's limited. But if you got the right speakers and you like simple music, you got a winner in 300B. At this point, I will have to argue that you will end up spending the $$$$ for the best tubes you can afford if you get this deep into the game. Westrex 300B are the best I have tried but I have not heard OS WE's.

In conclusion, 300B is not worth it unless you have the right speakers and love the right kind of music.

doug s. · « **Reply #31 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 03:09 pm »

i would never be interested in any amp that uses 300b tubes. like rim, i think they are too expensive. i think 6c33c tubes make exceptional set sound - all 300b adwantages w/o the penalties. sonically, anyways - the 6c33c tubes put out a tone of heat, and draw a lot of power...

doug s.

Brown · « **Reply #32 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 04:17 pm »

What no GM 70 tube. great sounding tube. sorry double post

Brown · « **Reply #33 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 04:24 pm »

What ? No GM 70 tube a la Lamm great sounding tube. Using GE 211s and RCA 805s. The GE a bit more detailed, the RCa rich and and sweet. Use RCA for voice and jazz. The GE for classical.

JackD201 · « **Reply #34 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 05:25 pm »

Nightshade,

Make the amps, provide bias and hum pots and stick some Shuguangs on 'em and sell them for a reasonable price. If the new owner wants to tube roll let HIM decide if he wants to spend on tubes that cost more than the amps

How does that sound to you?

Jack

JoshK · « **Reply #35 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 05:43 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 9 Feb 2009, 03:09 pm

i would never be interested in any amp that uses 300b tubes. like rim, i think they are too expensive. i think 6c33c tubes make exceptional set sound - all 300b adwantages w/o the penalties. sonically, anyways - the 6c33c tubes put out a tone of heat, and draw a lot of power...

doug s.

Not to pick on the 6C33, but in fairness, I think your point is overstated for the following reasons.

1) 300B is WAY more linear than 6C33, a fact that arises since the 6C33's wasn't developed for an application that required low distortion and high linearity.
2) 6C33's have huge tube to tube variation that afflicts all high gm tubes. Again, for its intended use, this didn't matter.
3) 6C33s tend to be gassy/draw grid current which places a demand on driver stage in order to not have distortion rise dramactically in operating range.

Somewhat related and likely overdone, doubts of their durability is still quite pervasive.

Usually, even SET applications require gNFB with the 6C33 tube to keep dynamic stability and lower distortion. OTL designs using 6C33 typically have large amounts of gNFB. The applications where 6C33s are used in SET mode w/o gNFB are with very high sensitivity speakers that require very low voltage swings (low power output).

They are far less expensive and they benefit from very low anode resistance requiring low turns ratio. But they have low mu too, so they require a very substantial driver, even more than 300B in terms of voltage swing which is no small feat.

doug s. · « **Reply #36 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 06:14 pm »

i really do not know nearly as much technically as you do, josh. all i know is that i have a pair of 6c33c-based amps made by audio mirror that are quite reliable, and quite powerful, and quite nice sounding. they output ~45wpc w/two 6c33c's run in parallel. (a-m make a similar amp, but w/the 6as7 in lieu of the 6c33c for half the power) of course, i got my a-m amps for a relative bargain, as well, so maybe that is also part of the equation.

but, even at a typical selling price of ~$2800 brand new, which is what vladimir bezelkov usually sells them for on agon, i think they are a good deal.

http://audiomirror.com/amps.html

i understand there there is some global negative feedback used, but not a lot. re: the 6c33c tubes, at ~$10-$15 a pop, if they aren't so reliable, well - big deal. and, if you want to go overboard, spend $30 each and get carefully matched burned in 6c33c tubes.

i also know that there's other relatively powerful set amps that use tubes other than 300b, like the 805 & 845 tubes. again, it yust seems, that ime, there's many other ways to get nice set sound w/o the 300b tube.

doug s.

Niteshade · « **Reply #37 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 06:17 pm »

What a great thread!

I'd like to know something: Those of you who have purchased new 300B's in the past several years- how long have they lasted? Under what kind of use were they under (normal, light, heavy?)

Also- were the tubes running hot, cool or somewhere in the middle? I'm talking about heat output, not tone.

I'd be more apt to make a 300B push-pull amplifier IF the tubes would outlive 6L6's by at least double.

Note: The driver stage of a power tube(s) {any power tube type} has at least a 70% say in what the final outcome sounds like. For those who do not like the 300B- there is a possibility you actually didn't like the driver stage and it has nothing to do with the tube. You would have to listen to the 300B wired multiple ways before objecting to the power tube itself.

DavidS · « **Reply #38 on:** 9 Feb 2009, 06:54 pm »

I have always read the key to magical 300b sound is high quality output transformers and tubes running with the right speakers. The rest should be fairly simple and not that expensive to produce. To this end I invested in quality James OPTs and TJ tubes and am loving the sound I get with my Zu Druids - like nothing else I have heard in my listening room. At $700 a pop for the TJs they better have some longevity because I can't afford to go there too many times.

David

Triode Pete · « **Reply #39 on:** 10 Feb 2009, 01:46 am »

Quote from: keith on 9 Feb 2009, 02:09 pm

Quote from: Triode Pete on 8 Feb 2009, 02:28 pm
I currently own WE 300B's, KR 300B's, RCA 50's, Sylvania VT-10A's as well as Philco 10's.

Hi Pete. Just curious ... which triode is your favorite among all those you've owned or tried?

Keith

Really, really like the 2A3 triodes, the mother of hi-fidelity! The 50 triode is also very nice followed by the 300B, VT-25A... A lot of people like the 45 triode...not enough power for me and to me not as sweet sounding as the 2A3.

My $0.02,
Pete