[jhm731]

The  "top secret type driver:"

"The core of the Harbeth sound is the exclusive RADIAL™ driver technology" found in the H40/40.1's midrange driver, see:

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/uploadfolder/m40t_a_s.pdf

If you want to sit on a stool like REG, see: http://www.regonaudio.com/REG%20Listening%20Room.html,
and the rest of the Harbeth nearfield marching band, you just found your perfect speaker.

Since I doubt TONEPUB will provide any measuremnts in his upcoming rave review, I suggest you look at the JA's H40.1 in room measurements. Red curve-AD's room. Blue curve- JA's room.

And your point?

JA doesn't know any more about measuring speakers than I do.

He does not have any formal training in electronics, engineering or acoustics.
As I recall the people at Harbeth were in disagreement with JA's measurments
of their speakers, which were measured professionally at the BBC's laboratories.

Neither we nor Harbeth said anything about a "top secret driver".

I like the Harbeths a lot.  I'll tell you why I like them in the upcoming review.
If you feel intrigued enough by the review to investigate for yourself, you will
have to decide whether you like them as much as I do.  If you do, buy em if
you can afford em.  If you don't, continue on your quest for the speaker that
makes you happy.

I suspect, just like any other speaker, you will listen to them and respond one
way or another, as you would with any other thing that you have purchased.

If there was one way to audio nirvana, there wouldn't be so many choices.

And I think you might be surprised at just how much detail the Harbeths DO
provide, given the right electronics.  I've now tried them with about ten different
sets of amplification from the Red Wine Audio 30.2's all the way up to a CJ premier
350.

I've also tried them with about six different sets of cable as well.

If you haven't heard the speaker in your room with your gear, you really
don't have much to comment on. Every component made has its set of
compromises, I particularly like these and could easily live with these for good,
especially in a small to medium sized room.

Please read the posts.

2bigears asked about the top secret type drivers.

Unlike you, I tried to answer his question.

"I've also tried them with about six different sets of cable as well."

WOW, You just made my point.

I think JA knows a whole lot more about how to measure speakers, etc.... than you do.

As soon as you publish some measurements of anything, please let us know.

PS- I really don't care what you or any other reviewer likes.

[TONEPUB]

PS- I really don't care what you or any other reviewer likes.

Then why do you care about what JA thinks?

And it shows that you know nothing about what we do.  I've been measuring components
just as long as JA, we just don't bother with it in our magazine because it doesn't help anyone
make a purchase decision.

For what it's worth, I've got a technical editor with a Master's in Electrical Engineering
and a PhD in Physics with a six million dollar lab that I can use any time I need to.

So, please don't tell me how to do my job or play the "my dog is bigger than your
dog card" with me, you lose every time.

PS:  I'm really tired of guys like you with marginal systems and marginal experience
telling me I don't know what I'm doing.

When you publish your magazine and it's ready for criticism, please let me know.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.  All I ever seem to see you
do on this forum is whine about measurements, that have precious little to do with
how gear actually sounds anyway.

That's why I don't waste my time with it.

[jon_010101]

To JHM, keep in mind that the difference in amplifiers is not insignificant in that frequency response plot.

Oh, and FWIW, I won't buy any component without first seeing detailed measurements.  I consider that crucial to making any purchasing decision - I don't like my gear to be "dishonest", even if it "sounds" good.  That said, I do read Tone Magazine, but I don't read Stereophile reviews anymore... I just flip straight to the measurements and look at the plots 

[jhm731]

PS- I really don't care what you or any other reviewer likes.

Then why do you care about what JA thinks?

And it shows that you know nothing about what we do.  I've been measuring components
just as long as JA, we just don't bother with it in our magazine because it doesn't help anyone
make a purchase decision.

For what it's worth, I've got a technical editor with a Master's in Electrical Engineering
and a PhD in Physics with a six million dollar lab that I can use any time I need to.

So, please don't tell me how to do my job or play the "my dog is bigger than your
dog card" with me, you lose every time.

PS:  I'm really tired of guys like you with marginal systems and marginal experience
telling me I don't know what I'm doing.

When you publish your magazine and it's ready for criticism, please let me know.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.  All I ever seem to see you
do on this forum is whine about measurements, that have precious little to do with
how gear actually sounds anyway.

That's why I don't waste my time with it.

If you've got a "six million dollar lab" please use it instead of telling us you've tried six different sets of cables.

I don't care what JA thinks, but at least he provides some meaningful in room measurements with reviews to confirm what he and his reviewers are hearing.

BTW- I'm really tired of "know it all" audio punks like you making silly statements like "my dog is bigger than your dog card" with me, you lose every time.

You're magazine is just another on line audio advertising rag.

I don't need to publish an on line magazine, for financial gain or recognition,  I'd rather spend my time listening to music. 

[ted_b]

JHM731,
Have you heard the Harbeth 40.1's?  What were your impressions?  You seem to dislike them, but haven't said what about them you disliked when you heard them?

[TONEPUB]

BTW- I'm really tired of "know it all" audio punks like you making silly statements like "my dog is bigger than your dog card" with me, you lose every time.

You're magazine is just another on line audio advertising rag.

I don't need to publish an on line magazine, for financial gain or recognition,  I'd rather spend my time listening to music. 

Now you are cracking me up...

So please explain what makes you so knowledgeable.  You read measurements in Stereophile and you think you
know something profound about hifi?  That's really funny.

You obviously don't read carefully or don't pay attention very well. 

Another grumpy flat earth audio person. 

[woodsyi]

Another grumpy flat earth audio person. 

You do him injustice.  I think he is a flat response person.  I bet he know the earth is round.

[rydenfan]

All I ever seem to see you do on this forum is whine about measurements, that have precious little to do with
how gear actually sounds anyway.

That's why I don't waste my time with it.

I really do not agree with you. Measurements are a crucial aspect of this hobby. You cannot tell everything from a measurement but you can certainly tell somethings. Do you believe if a speaker shows a very lifted treble or a highly rolled off treble that you will enjoy listening to the speaker or an extended period of time? Do you believe that speaker to be neutral and accurate? Obviously how something sounds in your system will be the most important factor but to say measurements are basically worthless is ridiculous. IMO, a true measurement of a speaker holds more weight to me than some guy saying it sounds good in their system. That is totally subjective and will hold little value to me. Whether or not you agree with JA or with Sounstage's NRC measurements at least they are taking the time to provide valuable information. I believe much of what we heard can be correlated with measurements but not always. If you truly have access to such an amazing facility than my recommendation would be to take advantage of it and begin providing measurements as a supplement to your reviews. Why wouldn't you do that?

[Vinyl-Addict]

The  "top secret type driver:"

"The core of the Harbeth sound is the exclusive RADIAL™ driver technology" found in the H40/40.1's midrange driver, see:

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/uploadfolder/m40t_a_s.pdf

If you want to sit on a stool like REG, see: http://www.regonaudio.com/REG%20Listening%20Room.html,
and the rest of the Harbeth nearfield marching band, you just found your perfect speaker.

Since I doubt TONEPUB will provide any measuremnts in his upcoming rave review, I suggest you look at the JA's H40.1 in room measurements. Red curve-AD's room. Blue curve- JA's room.

And your point?

JA doesn't know any more about measuring speakers than I do.

He does not have any formal training in electronics, engineering or acoustics.
As I recall the people at Harbeth were in disagreement with JA's measurments
of their speakers, which were measured professionally at the BBC's laboratories.

Neither we nor Harbeth said anything about a "top secret driver".

I like the Harbeths a lot.  I'll tell you why I like them in the upcoming review.
If you feel intrigued enough by the review to investigate for yourself, you will
have to decide whether you like them as much as I do.  If you do, buy em if
you can afford em.  If you don't, continue on your quest for the speaker that
makes you happy.

I suspect, just like any other speaker, you will listen to them and respond one
way or another, as you would with any other thing that you have purchased.

If there was one way to audio nirvana, there wouldn't be so many choices.

And I think you might be surprised at just how much detail the Harbeths DO
provide, given the right electronics.  I've now tried them with about ten different
sets of amplification from the Red Wine Audio 30.2's all the way up to a CJ premier
350.

I've also tried them with about six different sets of cable as well.

If you haven't heard the speaker in your room with your gear, you really
don't have much to comment on. Every component made has its set of
compromises, I particularly like these and could easily live with these for good,
especially in a small to medium sized room.

Please read the posts.

2bigears asked about the top secret type drivers.

Unlike you, I tried to answer his question.

"I've also tried them with about six different sets of cable as well."

WOW, You just made my point.

I think JA knows a whole lot more about how to measure speakers, etc.... than you do.

As soon as you publish some measurements of anything, please let us know.

PS- I really don't care what you or any other reviewer likes.

The link below shows 2 separate graphs, quite different than what JA achieved.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Harbeth%20Monitor%2040.html

This of course shows the M40 but there is little difference according to REG regarding in room response, although he did say that the newer M40.1 was  slightly better in the lower frequencies, which should only improve overall response.
The "top secret" driver is Alan Shaw's patented radial driver, nothing more. Any reviewer showing in room response should have little to do with your buying decision unless you have a room with the exact same dimensions and ancillary gear, makes no sense to argue about it.

[cujobob]

Measurements can tell you how a speaker is performing it's job, however, it cannot account for taste.  You both are just insulting each other at this point.

[TONEPUB]

All I ever seem to see you do on this forum is whine about measurements, that have precious little to do with
how gear actually sounds anyway.

That's why I don't waste my time with it.

I really do not agree with you. Measurements are a crucial aspect of this hobby. You cannot tell everything from a measurement but you can certainly tell somethings. Do you believe if a speaker shows a very lifted treble or a highly rolled off treble that you will enjoy listening to the speaker or an extended period of time? Do you believe that speaker to be neutral and accurate? Obviously how something sounds in your system will be the most important factor but to say measurements are basically worthless is ridiculous. IMO, a true measurement of a speaker holds more weight to me than some guy saying it sounds good in their system. That is totally subjective and will hold little value to me. Whether or not you agree with JA or with Sounstage's NRC measurements at least they are taking the time to provide valuable information. I believe much of what we heard can be correlated with measurements but not always. If you truly have access to such an amazing facility than my recommendation would be to take advantage of it and begin providing measurements as a supplement to your reviews. Why wouldn't you do that?

I will repeat for the last time.  I don't waste weeks of my life measuring gear because I don't think the measurements
reveal anything terribly profound.

Please explain to the SET and single driver people on this forum why their gear doesn't sound good because it measures terribly.

If I did bother to publish measurements, I would have a ton of "Hobbyists" still tell me I don't know what I'm doing and my measurements aren't what they've done, blah blah.

As my PhD. buddy likes to tell me "good science creates results that can be duplicated by another competent scientist"

So, if we are talking about IN ROOM measurements, those numbers mean nothing to you unless you have a complete duplicate of my room, gear, etc.

Which leaves us back to "I like speaker X because it sounds good."

We do our best to test any kind of speaker with a variety of different electronics and cable as well as in a few different rooms of varying acoustic properties.  This means a lot more to me than some charts and graphs.  The average person wants to know "how will this speaker sound in my room?" "Is it difficult to set up?" "Does it require a lot of power to drive?", "Will it work with Tubes/SS/SET amplification?" "Is it cable sensitive?"

If measurements are critical to you, then don't bother reading our magazine.  We are not a hard core audio hobby magazine.  We are a music magazine that just happens to have a staff full of hifi enthusiasts on board that want to share their knowledge and experience with our readers.  If you don't find our findings valid then move on.  

But considering the tremendous amount of email we get every day by happy readers that claim we have helped them to make some decent hifi choices, I'm fine with how we proceed.

I'm not really that concerned about the .000001% of the grumpy audiophile population.  I'm trying to find the people out there that want a decent music system and have been completely turned off by the hardcore audiophiles and elitist sales people.

If you want charts and graphs, read someone else's magazine.  Other than a few internet forum people, I've never met anyone in 35 years who's bought a piece of hifi gear based on measurements, charts, graphs or specs.

And for what it's worth in all the years of listening to other peoples systems, I've never experienced good sound at someone's house who is a measurement fanatic, ever.

So, in closing, if you can give me a set of measurement protocols that DIRECTLY correspond to "good" sound, I'm interested, but otherwise I'm done arguing with this.  The best engineers in the industry have all told me that measurements are merely a place to start, or a place to find gross errors.  I've had the good fortune to meet most of the best designers in this industry over the years.

Don't you think if there was a short track to making incredible gear, that by now ONE of the majors would have picked up on it, and conquer the hifi market?

If you want to make audio a hobby, and nerd out with measurements that's fine, I just don't see anyones data as conclusive.

[rydenfan]

So you think .000001% of the people in this hobby care about measurements? I think you are grossly mistaken. And because I differ from your point of view than I am automatically considered  grumpy audiophile population? I had no idea you were such a close-minded elitest 

[Vinyl-Addict]

So you think .000001% of the people in this hobby care about measurements? I think you are grossly mistaken.

With all due respect, that's not what he said. Please read the statement again.

[jon_010101]

I'm somewhat surprised that these Harbeth plots are being debated - the speaker performs quite well indeed by objective standards, probably sound great, and I'd love to own a pair.  If AD didn't have an amp with high output impedance, the differences would be much smaller.

Please explain to the SET and single driver people on this forum why their gear doesn't sound good because it measures terribly.

Well, a good SET amp does measure pretty well at the low powers involved in driving single-driver speakers, so I don't see this as much of a contradiction. 

However, compare the Wavac SH-833 measurements with those of a Lamm ML2.1.  The first costs $350k and is among the worst performing SE amps I've seen tested.  The second costs a mere $30k () and is among the best.  If I were amazingly wealthy, based on measurements, I'd pick the second, and not even bother to listen to the first.  Reviewers have gushed over the Wavac, but no doubt the fact that it performs so weird contributes to their favorable impressions.  But when one realizes that its "sound" is not because it does things better than any other amp, but instead much worse, I don't see how it can be viewed as anything other than deceptive.  The same audiophiles buying such an amp might be appalled at the notion of adding an EQ and a dynamics processor to their system, but ... well, that's what they'd be doing.   

[TONEPUB]

So you think .000001% of the people in this hobby care about measurements? I think you are grossly mistaken. And because I differ from your point of view than I am automatically considered  grumpy audiophile population? I had no idea you were such a close-minded elitest 

Yep, I do...

In 35 years of doing this, I've never met anyone that actually wrote a check for a piece of hifi gear based on measurements.  I talk to hifi dealers all over the world every week and I ask them the same question:  "When was the last time someone came in here and bought a piece of hifi gear because of measurements?"  And every time I get the same answer: Never.

I don't care that you differ from my point of view.  It's still a free country for a little while, so live it up, measure to your hearts content.

If you knew anything at all about me or paid attention to what I've written over the years, I'm certainly a lot more open minded than most audiophiles.  I read the endless debates about single driver speakers, panel speakers, direct drive vs. belt drive, etc etc and I think it's all a big waste of time in the sense of revealing any kind of ultimate truth.

I like to listen to music.  Always have.

While I am fortunate to have a couple of major systems at my disposal, I can have fun listening to music at any level.  I don't care what's in your system, what your measurements are or what music you like.

All I try to do at the end of the day is tell you about something we had a pleasant experience with.  If you investigate for yourself and agree with what I've said, great, if you don't, that's fine too.  In the end its really about your experience. So, I don't consider myself closed minded at all.  I probably listen to about 200 components a year here at TONE, and twice that  many out in the field, reviewers houses and at shows.

Every one of my reviewers has a different system, they all sound very good and they've all taken a different path.  I've heard great sound where I thought I wouldn't and I've been disappointed where I was expecting great sound.

Music is art.  People either respond favorably to it or they don't and all the measurements in the world won't change that perception.

And for what it's worth, those 350 thousand dollar Wavacs sound pretty awesome.  I'd never buy em either but they sound pretty incredible. 

Again, when someone can show me a conclusive set of measurement protocols that will guarantee good sound from an amplifier or pair of speakers without having to listen to it, I'll give measurements more weight.

[jhm731]

The link below shows 2 separate graphs, quite different than what JA achieved.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Harbeth%20Monitor%2040.html

This of course shows the M40 but there is little difference according to REG regarding in room response, although he did say that the newer M40.1 was  slightly better in the lower frequencies, which should only improve overall response.
The "top secret" driver is Alan Shaw's patented radial driver, nothing more. Any reviewer showing in room response should have little to do with your buying decision unless you have a room with the exact same dimensions and ancillary gear, makes no sense to argue about it.

I've seen REG's M40 measurements.

It seems none of his forum members have been able to get measurements like his.

Here's M40 and M40.1(same pair JA tested) measurements taken by one of his forum members in a nearfield listening set-up using a TacT RCS 2.2XP and Bryston 7B-SST amps. I think the room is 13.5' x 20. My room is 12' x 18'.



M40



M40.1

You're not going fix that big hump with different sets of cable.

The TacT RCS 2.2XP can easily bring down the hump, but to fix the steep bass rolloff, this REG forum member uses
JL subs crossed over at 95hz.

[Vinyl-Addict]

The link below shows 2 separate graphs, quite different than what JA achieved.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Harbeth%20Monitor%2040.html

This of course shows the M40 but there is little difference according to REG regarding in room response, although he did say that the newer M40.1 was  slightly better in the lower frequencies, which should only improve overall response.
The "top secret" driver is Alan Shaw's patented radial driver, nothing more. Any reviewer showing in room response should have little to do with your buying decision unless you have a room with the exact same dimensions and ancillary gear, makes no sense to argue about it.

I've seen REG's M40 measurements.

It seems none of his forum members have been able to get measurements like his.

Here's M40 and M40.1(same pair JA tested) measurements taken by one of his forum members in a nearfield listening set-up using a TacT RCS 2.2XP and Bryston 7B-SST amps. I think the room is 13.5' x 20. My room is 12' x 18'.



M40



M40.1

You're not going fix that big hump with different sets of cable.

The TacT RCS 2.2XP can easily bring down the hump, but to fix the steep bass rolloff, this REG forum member uses
JL subs crossed over at 95hz.

The true anechoic response of the speaker is really quite flat so the room is responsible for the peak or hump as you put it. Who uses cables/IC's to correct for bass anomolies? 
I think it's obvious you don't like the speaker. I posted REG's in room response and you counter with another that is not so favourable. Take any speaker and the same differences will occur. Different rooms = different response.

[Lancelot]

 I tend to think some speaker measurements do make a difference in terms of buying considerations.

Although they tend to be getting more honest, speaker sensitivity is still often rated higher ( sometimes significantly) than what test results show. The impedance curve ( which without testing there is no way of knowing) can determine whether a high current power amp is needed or what the speakers interaction with a high output impedance tube amp will be. Distortion levels in the bass can be a guide to how loudly a speaker might be reasonably able to play cleanly.

If you don't know any of the above, except for the limited info provided by the manufacturer, you have to trust a reviewer has tried the loudspeaker under review with a wide variety of amps of all power and output impedance ranges and then trust his/her subjective evaluation of what they thinks works best.

I'm all for the subjective evaluation of a seasoned reviewer but if you are able to test for the above specifications it could only add to the resulting review.

Combining the best of available research and measurements with subjective reviewing simply gives a better, bigger picture. Less information is rarely better.

  

[jhm731]

The true anechoic response of the speaker is really quite flat so the room is responsible for the peak or hump as you put it. Who uses cables/IC's to correct for bass anomolies? 
I think it's obvious you don't like the speaker. I posted REG's in room response and you counter with another that is not so favourable. Take any speaker and the same differences will occur. Different rooms = different response.

I don't listen in an anechoic chamber, do you?

TONEPUB posted that he tried six different sets of cable with the M40.1s.

I haven't heard the H40.1.

I've heard the H40 and really liked their midrange performance, but as you said "Different rooms = different response,"
and based on in room measurements I've seen from everyone other than REG, I don't think they'll work in my room and I don't want to listen in a nearfield set up like REG's (he sits on that stool with a book(s) to get his ears at just the right level):



If the OP has a dealer in his area, he should take a listen.

[mr_bill]

I don't think my wife would go for those foam pads glued to the ceiling.