[wilsynet]

I'm thinking about the VPI Scout with JMW9 tonearm, MSRP is $1800.  Very well reviewed.

Looking at some Vinyl Circle posts, it looks like Technics tables from KAB are highly recommended.  So I went to KAB, and I spec'd the following:

KAB Custom Technics SL-1200SE
SL-1210M5GSE $625
TD-1200 Tonearm Fluid Damper $149.00
PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply $250.00
KAB USA Record Clamp $29.00
Tonearm Rewire $169.00. Cardas to KAB PC-1200 RCA Phono Plate
Isonoe™ Machined Sorbothane Spring Isolator Feet $200

Total cost for the tricked out Technics is $1337.

Is there anything else I should do to the KAB Technics?  Should I take it apart and dampen the chassis with modeling clay, or is that already done?  Any of the upgrades I've listed from KAB, are some of them low value that I shouldn't have done?

How does a tricked out KAB technics for $1337 compare to a Michell, Rega P5/P7 or VPI Scout?  Is it that the KAB Technics is great value for money at < $600, and what happens when you trick it out?  Or is it that it competes very well at the $1500+ level?

[lcrim]

If you are asking for advice on how to configure a new Technics 12XX from KAB I can give you some help.  I've owned one for some time and have become friends w/ the owner of KAB, Kevin Barrett so you can judge my comments in that light.
The base is a  section constrained layer non resonant affair from the manufacturer.  Adding clay to its interior for damping is overkill as well as dangerous to clearances.
I don't use the record clamp any more because I have an SDS Isoplatmat on the platter as well as a Herbies Most Excellent II mat and the clamp deflects the Isoplatmat downward in the center resulting in more noise from the distorted record and groove wall as well as a loss in dynamics.  The strobe disabler (which you skipped)  is valuable in that the running strobe can generate electrical noise that can be detrimental to good playback.  I tried the Isonoe feet and brass cones underneath and found no change.  The other mods you listed have much value.  Many add a headshell from other sources that allow azimuth adjustment, mostly getting the azimuth out of adjustment.  There is a small amount of play there before tightening on the stock headshell that provides all the adjustment I've ever needed.
I actually bought my TT from Kevin used.  It was his demonstrator and has many miles on it as well as almost all the upgrades.  All the setup controls work easily and are more akin to a fine mechanical instrument than what I had been used to at that point.  I did have the tonearm rewire done, mine is a MKII, and that huge improvement could be judged on its own as opposed to the others which were done before I bought it. 
I believe that there are few true bargains in the the world of audio, but this is certainly one.  People are always stunned to hear lifelike playback w/o pops and crackles for the most part when they visit and ask to hear it.
Good luck in your search.

[Wayner]

You also don't need all the mods right away, do you? I'm happy with my stock unit which someday I will upgrade tonearm wire. Like Larry says, it has to be one of the greatest audio values today. I have an older Technics DD table, the SL-Q2, which is about 25 years old and it runs like brand new. No belts to screw with, highly engineered. Yes, I would like to have a VPI scout, too. But for $1800, yikes! Call me a cheapskate, but I'd rather spend the money on software, better known as "Black Pizza".

Wayner

[cruz123]

FYI, Music Direct and Elusive Disc sell B-stock Scouts for around $1400 from time to time.  I bought one a while back and still can't figure out why it's b-stock, i.e. I can't see any marks on it, etc.   Of course you'll still need a cartridge and a dustcover, etc.   Even with b-stock you can expect to be in over $2k for a good setup.   

[mcrespo71]

I think that TonePub may be able to make some of the comparisons you are referencing.  Also, if I'm not mistaken 2bigears has actually compared the Rega P9 to a Technics, though I don't think it was a KAB.  I can comment on the Rega vs VPI, but only based on hearing them many years apart from one another, which is probably not very useful for you and nothing more than a subjective opinion.  Tonepub is going to be doing a ton of shootouts in his next article with everything level matched, etc., so I'd wait for his opinion, unless someone actually has heard a couple of those tables set up next to one another. 

You also may want to check out the ChairGuys belt drive vs. direct drive thread for direct comparsions.

[TONEPUB]

Im actually waiting for the Sound HiFi stuff to get here from England
This looks much more promising than the KAB mods.

They have been held up a bit in the production of their latest SME arm
mounting board.

I know everyone likes the rewired technics arm, etc, but I still think it's
the weak link.  So by putting an SME 309 on the 1200, we'll see whats
really lurking in the 1200 and do some direct comparisons, with identical
cartridges, etc.etc.

I am very interested in seeing what this combination has to offer.

[wilsynet]

Thanks for the advice regarding the modifications.  Looks like if I get the KAB I should swap the feet for the strobe disabler.

The Direct Drive versus Belt Drive shootout was fun to read.  But wanted some other opinions too ...

No, don't need all of the mods right away, but after it's all hotrod, how well does it compare to its more upscale turntable cousins?  After having gone through a ton of equipment swaps while looking for a DAC, I've decided this time I want to skip the extended multiple audition sessions and spend the money up front.

Looking forward to the TONE shootout.  The SME 309 is more than 2x the cost of a whole KAB rig.  Yikes.  Must be a really nice tonearm.

Thanks for all of the advice so far.

[TheChairGuy]

Jeff, the SoundHiFi mods do seem to be promising, and sweeping, in completeness.

But, I think the 'dark' sound of the Technics...may be nothing more than the rubber base of the unit.  It likewise makes it fantastically feedback resistant and superbly/ruggedly built.....but, not optimal for really super high quality playback.  For $1000.00, there's not much that can touch it in today's market of (new) alternatives, however. 

But, at higher price points, even with pricey SME (or in my case Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II) arms....other decks sound more sweeping, natural and less dark (overdamped).  Until someone comes up with an altogether different plinth to lay the high-quality drive mechanism in, I think that it's money poorly spent in upgrading it with expensive arms.

The KAB (or Sound HiFi) mods of strobe disabler, outboarded power supply/transformer are just smart for any deck....rewiring or changing out arms may improve, but still not reach the required levels of truly obsessed vinylphools. I prefer fluid damped arms as Grado's require them....a Mk. V (with OFC wiring already) or Mk. II (rewired by KAB) and the motor/strobe mods with a Grado make a helluva $1000 table for someone....but, won't make you believe you are listening to a $3000 table as it sounds 'dark'/overdamped ultimately.

But, we're talking bomb-proof reliability and really good sound (enough to embarrass CD players of the same price or more) for $1000.00...and for that it has really no peer that I know of in today's market of new turntables.  Tho I would imagine the new Rega P3-24 and outboard PSU ($1200 in the US) might well be it's equal or superior in many ways.  The multi-phase control of the AC motor's inherent issues that Rega uses is cost effective and really using smart technology. 

$400 in Groovetracer add-ons might tip the scales seriously in the Rega's direction (but cost more than any hot rodded Technics would)

My particular (old) Technics also has a 'etch' to it....but I've chalked this up to it's hard life before me and it likely has a main bearing issue as the cause of this.  One of these days I may stoke my Technics up again and hear how it compares versus my JVC DD decks (which I think are superior to it...even with pricey OL arm and all the upgrades attached)

I got no bone to pick in any of this - I just hear 'em, and call 'em, as it is with no remorse and precious little subjectivity on the topic.  If the above does not please some of you unabashed Technics SL-1200 fans...oh, well, my apologies

John

[lcrim]

What kind of a comparison can be expected when the guy doing the comparison is already derogatory about KAB and Technics.  Keep in mind this so called shoot out is an opinion nothing more.  Since the organizer has continued to be negative regarding the Technics 12xx family and KAB, the conclusions are predictable.

[TheChairGuy]

Jeff/TONEPUB,

As you and I are only 500 miles from one another, and likely that UPS won't kill the shipment...I would gladly and expecting no pay whatsoever (in fact, I insist upon not being paid so I can keep my objectivity in any audio-related matter) listen to the uber-modded KAB and Sound HiFi Technics side-by-side and chime in with my opinion on it.

Hell, I may even poach a Rega P3-24 on the used market for comparison, too, at the price point

As you (and most know), I am a real fan of direct drive decks over belt drive for similar cash outlays.  I would take my Technics 1200, the motor & strobe mods with even the original hot-rodded Rega 250 arm I had on it over my VPI HW-19 Mk. III with Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II arm (a mismatch of a couple thousand in the VPI's favor).  Not until the $1000 SDS unit was added did I slightly prefer the VPI. But, that was a $3000 mismatch and the VPI should indeed be preferred at that price.

So, as you can plainly see I am a fan of direct drivers for the money.

I have on order a VPI Classic table from VPI ($2500) that is supposed to be here in the next few weeks that I can use as comparo, as well.  Ditto for my JVC QL-Y66F direct drive table (1985) with 10" arm and magnetic supported platter....which is King of this Corral now in my home.

I offer up my time and home as a potential alternative point of view for you...from what I can describe as a direct drive 'fan'.

Unfortunately, you have been tainted by your previous comments on the Technics SL-1200....and diehards like my co-Fac Larry Crim will not accept your possible outcome.  I luv my co-Fac for his honesty/integrity, finding him nonetheless myopic/narrow minded on some matters....but, it is a malady that other KAB/Technics fans suffer from and one in which you will be forever tarnished by your previous negative spursions on the KAB/Technics. 

John

[lazydays]

for that kind of money I'd just buy the Marantz table and be ready to go in about fifteen minutes. As bad as I hate to say it you can buy a Music Hall #7 as well.
gary

[mcrespo71]

What kind of a comparison can be expected when the guy doing the comparison is already derogatory about KAB and Technics.  Keep in mind this so called shoot out is an opinion nothing more.  Since the organizer has continued to be negative regarding the Technics 12xx family and KAB, the conclusions are predictable.

EVERYTHING STATED HERE IS AN OPINION, but at least Jeff can hook up a bunch of tables next to one another with the same cartridge and compare them straight up.  IMO, that's more than most others, including myself, can say.  The previous statement does not include ChairGuy, Wayner, or 2bigears, who I know have multiple tables and carts in residence.

[wilsynet]

Jeff,

If I recall correctly, you've had the RWA Isabella with DAC for extended audition and then review.  I'm very curious about vinyl, but don't want to spend many months going back and forth with a vinyl rig like I've done with outboard DACs. 

For a phono stage I was thinking the Jolida JD-9A.  It seems universally well regarded as quite competitive.

It is commonly accepted here that a $1000 vinyl rig does easily better than megabuck CD players.  Taking your experience with the Isabella and many vinyl rigs into account, what kind of money would I need to spend on a vinyl rig to do seriously or noticeably better than the Isabella's DAC?

Wilson

[TONEPUB]

Hi there.

Sorry, while it may go against the grain, I'm NOT of the mind that a 1000 dollar vinyl rig (Table, cart and phono pre) is better than a megabuck CD player and I've got three megabuck CD players: The Naim CD555 ($32,000), The Wadia 781i SE ($17,000) and the Luxman Du-7 universal player ($8000, not quite megabuck).

I've used the Isabella with DAC for some time now and bought the review sample to use as one of our regular reference components.  I've used it with a few different transports as well as a few different music servers (sooloos, squeezebox, Wadia 170i, McIntosh MS750, Mac Mini running iTunes and an HP touch smart running Zune software)

Personally, I think digital has gotten a lot better and the Isabella is one of the more "analog sounding" DAC's I've had the pleasure to listen to.

What you mean by "better" is somewhat relative, but if I were looking at a turntable to be more musically revealing, possess more accurate tonality, be more three dimensional in its presentation and have more dynamics than the Isabella with a good source, I think you'd be looking in more the 3-6 thousand dollar range, if not a little higher.

[TONEPUB]

As for the constant grumping about my being negative about the SL-1200, I think you should keep in mind
that I'm still spending time with this rather than writing it off completely, so I think the fact that I'm keeping
an open mind about this says something about my optimism.

And no it's not my opinion about the technics.  We've compared it to plenty of tables with the same cartridge,
and the same records, etc etc on entry level, modest and world class systems.  When the only variable is
the table, it's pretty easy to get a read on the sound and what's different.

I don't think the Technics is a bad table, I just don't think it's a world beater.  And I have had the chance to hear
a couple of the KAB modded tables, though not in my system.  Again, it's fine but it's not a five or ten thousand
dollar table killer.

There is nothing wrong with an SL-1200.  I've said it before, I'll say it again and honestly thanks to you guys
I have warmed up to this table a lot.  I'm actually quite enthusiastic about the Sound Hifi mods.  While John thinks
it's the turntable mat, I think it's the motor control circuit and the tonearm.  I don't think a simple rewire will cure
the lack of resolution that this table has.  Having spent a lot of time with the SP-10 mk 2, (with a better arm as well)
I know that direct drive can sound very, very good and I do suspect a lot of that is lurking under the hood of the SL-1200.

John, when I finally get the Sound HiFi deck in and set up, I'll give you a call.  It might be worth your while
to mosey over and give it a listen.  And while you are here we can probably compare it to a Rega P9, Raven Two
and possibly the Spiral Groove SG-2 while we are at it.  I think then you will be able to easily see and hear the
difference and we can put this to rest once and for all.

And for what it's worth, I think having some skepticism is very healthy.  I'd much rather going into a review/evaluation
being a little negative and be pleasantly surprised, rather than the other way around.

It's happened more than once in four years and I've always been happy to report the results.  I'll be happy to
do the same if I have great luck with the Sound HiFi mods.  Adding their power supply and an SME 309 (Which you
can find used for about 1000 bucks) would still make the combo about 2500, which would make it a formidable
competitor to the Scoutmaster, Rega P7 and a number of others in this price range.

[TheChairGuy]

There is nothing wrong with an SL-1200.  I've said it before, I'll say it again and honestly thanks to you guys
I have warmed up to this table a lot.  I'm actually quite enthusiastic about the Sound Hifi mods.  While John thinks
it's the turntable mat, I think it's the motor control circuit and the tonearm. 

John, when I finally get the Sound HiFi deck in and set up, I'll give you a call.  It might be worth your while
to mosey over and give it a listen.  And while you are here we can probably compare it to a Rega P9, Raven Two
and possibly the Spiral Groove SG-2 while we are at it.  I think then you will be able to easily see and hear the
difference and we can put this to rest once and for all.

A-okay on all.

Jeff, the bottom layer of the tri-layer affair of the Technics SL-12XX is what I am referring to as hopelessly holding back this deck from greatness...not the mat (which is easily replaced by many other better choices). I've got two mats on mine....EAR Composite DIY job (to damp the platter) and a Herbie's mat on top (to bond with the record without overdamping it).

Changing out mats is helpful, but not the full monty.  Changing out the stock feet to brass pointy toes straight down into a maple block was a far more helpful tweek among the two, frankly.

The rubber bottom (or possibly plastic/rubber composite top) make this deck fantastically hardy and feedback resistant...but, likely (I am postulating as I really don't know) it's the same rubber bottom holding back sonics and causing it to, ultimately, sound dull/dark/muted and or overdamped next to decks in a much higher league of price.  for US$500-$1000.00 it's a senselessly good deck - but falls short if you would spend $2000+ for a deck. 

All the well intentioned mods to the arm, motor, strobe, platter mat, and feet still leave that deadening effect of the rubber bottom in place, I think.

But, it is a great deck in itself in that price range...hard for me to recommend anything better at that same cost (new) these days.

Now if I can finagle a way to see Fred Meyer in Portland, I might be able to write my trip off to business when seeing ya'

John

[Wayner]

I just installed my Grado Longhorn from Frank Van Alstine (the very last one made) for Dan Kolton to see if the hum level is Ok (which it is) in my Technics SL-Q2 DD table. I can tell why John thinks Technics are dark 'cause it is the Grado cartridge. With a flip of a switch, I can put on my SL-1200 with AT440MLa and there is a big difference. I'd almost say that the cartridge above anything else makes the largest difference. Next is the phono preamp.

FYI, it's not a bad dark, it just favors the bass end more. Still creates a nice soundfield.

Wayner

[Toka]

I'm looking forward to the Tone comparison...and I'll say that I trust Jeff to provide an honest opinion on the matter. I'm still in the hunt for a new 'table, and a while ago zeroed in on the KAB Technics (giving myself a budget of "hopefully not much more than $2K"). Every other 'table I tried offered what, to me, are unacceptable compromises in either speed control or general "finickiness". Now, some of those decks had a great sound, not necessarily better than the KAB but different, but the other issues swayed my opinion. Kevin being a class act when contacted also helped, as some other manufacturers would either not respond at all, or if they deigned to answer my questions they would sometimes be rather terse and dismissive.

I'm still open to other possibilities...I really like Sota decks (Sapphire-Nova range), but of course they are far more expensive, and I'd imagine require a bit more hands-on care than the Technics, which save for a few drops of oil once a year require essentially no maintenance at all.

[2bigears]

    P9 in the house with Dyna xx2 and 1210 M5G with Benz micro,with no mods yet.new prices taken into consideration,the Rega with cart is 6 times the money.i will tell you straight,right here,right now,get the Technics,can you say 'kick-ass-value'....  'kiss' applies here,for starter decks you can't beat the Tech

[TONEPUB]

John, if you get up here, we'll have plenty to talk about...

I've tried my SL-1200 with every single cartridge that we've had
in for review over the last 18 months, and while it's not for me
I still have hope that we can make this into a cool deck that is
within reach of most audiophiles.

The beat goes on.