Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini

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The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #40 on: 19 Feb 2009, 12:41 am »
I should rephrase... it is the most expensive and time consuming portion of the project :D

Getting cabs made is always the hard part.

Lots of cabinet makers in these neck of the woods. From my perspective that is the easiest part. :)

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #41 on: 19 Feb 2009, 12:43 am »
Agreed!  My comments were based on using the speakers for music.

I suppose it comes down to personal preference regarding a separate sub vs. powered woofers.  For use in a larger room (like mine) or for HT, I feel like having a very good separate sub that will play loudly and deeply is preferable to powered woofers that go to 28 Hz.  This way there's just one driver for the bass frequencies, and it's easier to blend everything together.  Now, for a smaller, 2 channel listening room, then the way the Mini's are set up is likely optimal. 

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. 


The powered 8" in the Mini should blend seamlessly.  It should never sound 'separate' - it should sound as if the speaker is simply capable of near full range operation.

I'm confident that with some tweaking, you can get it to all blend quite well.  Start a new thread here or in the Skiing Ninja upgrade forum [http://ninjasreview.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3] and we can help you out.  Post photos as well as the settings you are using on each Strata amp.

Ninja

Quote
As for having multiple mid drivers, that may help things out.  The part of the Mini I've never been quite satisfied with is the powered woofer.  Likely, I need to spend more time on placement and fine tuning things, but I've never felt it meshed well w/ the rest of the speaker.  Having 2 drivers like that would likely extend the bass into the realm where one can easily match w/ an external sub. 

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #42 on: 19 Feb 2009, 12:45 am »
I still think that can be solved.  I'd love to see an in-room frequency response plot.  I bet you'll see the problem there.



I think the powered woofer on the mini has a "heavier" feel than the rest of the mini. It blends well for me and I like the flexibility, but I think I would have made a different design choice.
Just going from the description and not from personal experience, I bet the servo sub would sound quite nice with the Mini.

emac

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #43 on: 19 Feb 2009, 01:12 am »
Ninja-san, you're likely quite right that there are some peaks and nulls that are contributing to some of my problems.  But, I also agree w/ dvenardos that a servo sub or 2 would likely provide the best bass for the Mini's.   


I still think that can be solved.  I'd love to see an in-room frequency response plot.  I bet you'll see the problem there.



I think the powered woofer on the mini has a "heavier" feel than the rest of the mini. It blends well for me and I like the flexibility, but I think I would have made a different design choice.
Just going from the description and not from personal experience, I bet the servo sub would sound quite nice with the Mini.

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #44 on: 19 Feb 2009, 02:10 am »
I'm with ya man.  Certainly the 8" woofie in the Strata Mini is not the bestest driver EVAR.

I want to build a few of Danny's subs for the HT too.  Sell the SVS's and build a few of the dual driver sand box woofs. 

Sweet :)

emac

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #45 on: 19 Feb 2009, 03:50 am »
Well, no reason why Mini owners can't just use servo subs instead of the powered woofers.  Just disconnect them and/or don't turn them on and use the servos.  Preferably open baffle servos to match the speed and sound of the Mini's. 

That would make for a very interesting project for Danny or someone else.  Redo the Mini's w/ the main 3 drivers and replace the powered woofer w/ an open baffle servo sub, one for each side.  Might also be interesting to replace the midbass coupler w/ an open baffle driver as well.  Then you'd have the first hybrid planar/open baffle speaker (at least that I'm aware of).  No idea how well it would work, but can't see any reason why it wouldn't sound terrific.  Sheesh, the more I think about it, the more I'm  :drool:  Sign me up!

cujobob

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #46 on: 19 Feb 2009, 03:50 am »
I agree with Sean...errr...The Ninja.  If the 8" woof isn't blending well then it's a frequency response issue and just needs to be dialed in a bit better.

emac

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #47 on: 19 Feb 2009, 03:59 am »
I agree with Sean...errr...The Ninja.  If the 8" woof isn't blending well then it's a frequency response issue and just needs to be dialed in a bit better.

Took care of the problem tonight.  The woofer still doesn't quite keep up with the tweeter and mid, but much better, and hardly noticeable. 

dvenardos

Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #48 on: 19 Feb 2009, 04:23 am »
Okay Ninja, so we are all excited when are we going to be able to order that Ninja Mini Center kit?  aa

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #49 on: 19 Feb 2009, 04:49 am »
Well, no reason why Mini owners can't just use servo subs instead of the powered woofers.  Just disconnect them and/or don't turn them on and use the servos.  Preferably open baffle servos to match the speed and sound of the Mini's. 

That would make for a very interesting project for Danny or someone else.  Redo the Mini's w/ the main 3 drivers and replace the powered woofer w/ an open baffle servo sub, one for each side.  Might also be interesting to replace the midbass coupler w/ an open baffle driver as well.  Then you'd have the first hybrid planar/open baffle speaker (at least that I'm aware of).  No idea how well it would work, but can't see any reason why it wouldn't sound terrific.  Sheesh, the more I think about it, the more I'm  :drool:  Sign me up!

Does a pair of minis with a pair of the prebuilt sealed GR servo subs count? :D

I played with that setup for a while. . . very nice, no doubt!  Which brings me to my problem with the setup.  I really wanted to use the powered woofers in the mini to get the stereo "woofer" frequencies in, you know, stereo; from there on down, "subwoofer" frequencies (meaning below 40hz by my definition in this exercise) would be managed by the servos.  My problem was the servo bass. . . no matter how much I tweaked on it, the servo bass was just that much BETTER than anything the minis' powered drivers could deliver that I just couldn't find a good blend from the mini driver down to the servos. . . so  I just crossed the minis at 80Hz, unplugged the amps, and let the servos do their thing.  Now don't get me wrong - the woofers in the minis do very well, and if I hadn't had the servos right next to them to A/B, I probably wouldn't know I was missing out on anything.  It is just that the servos really are on a whole higher level.

IMnsHO, the mini reborn as a fully sealed design with front firing servo sub drivers in each cabinet (heck, if you're really feeling crazy a pair of the 8 ohm drivers run off of one amp per "mini") would both eliminate some of the placement challenges with the mini as-is, and take the whole thing up another notch - picture minis doing all of the music that they do so well now. . . and throw in some pipe organ!  :icon_twisted:

On another tangent, I got to thinking about the whole dual 8 ohm servo drivers per amp thing.  I was thinking that with a good 100Hz-up design and a little creative planning one could build a very powerful, effortless, HT and big scale music kind of speaker; sort of a "poor man's" Catalyst is what I kind of had in my head. . .  For a second, I just imagined having six servo subs across the front of my room doing mid-bass pans during action movies.  :drool:

Sean, on yet another track, just out of curiosity I read a post of yours above discussing the cabinet size and front baffle dimensioning on some of the imagined mini designs.  Unless I misread, you suggested that the front baffle size would change or affect the crossover.  How does that work/in what way?  Not being provocative here, honestly trying to learn a bit about the black art of crossover design - something I don't know too much about. :)

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #50 on: 19 Feb 2009, 06:47 am »
This is far more Danny's domain but you have to compensate for the baffle step and that changes with the width of the baffle itself.

Sean, on yet another track, just out of curiosity I read a post of yours above discussing the cabinet size and front baffle dimensioning on some of the imagined mini designs.  Unless I misread, you suggested that the front baffle size would change or affect the crossover.  How does that work/in what way?  Not being provocative here, honestly trying to learn a bit about the black art of crossover design - something I don't know too much about. :)

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #51 on: 19 Feb 2009, 06:49 am »
Expect it when you see it :)

Really we are just in the discovery phase now...

Okay Ninja, so we are all excited when are we going to be able to order that Ninja Mini Center kit?  aa

zoltano

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #52 on: 19 Feb 2009, 10:49 am »
Gentlemen,

Color me interested!

Ref 100 right now for my PR Minis. I would switch in a heartbeat, but only if the center would also come in PR... (Actually, PB would be fine as well.)

:)

The Ninja

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #53 on: 19 Feb 2009, 04:33 pm »
We do have the ability to offer any automotive finish out there.  Well over 50,000 colors.  Piano Black is quite doable.

Gentlemen,

Color me interested!

Ref 100 right now for my PR Minis. I would switch in a heartbeat, but only if the center would also come in PR... (Actually, PB would be fine as well.)

:)

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #54 on: 21 Feb 2009, 08:17 pm »
This is far more Danny's domain but you have to compensate for the baffle step and that changes with the width of the baffle itself

Cool.  Then maybe a question aimed at Danny - does (or how does) the curved face of the mini play into this equation?  I'm assuming it was a design decision that tried to keep the baffle width as functionally small as possible while keeping the back of the box big enough for the 8" driver and amp?  I measured the back of the top half on one of my minis and it measures externally to 11.5" straight across.  The width of the curve on the front of the cabinet would make (theoretically) the actual width of the baffle a bit wider linearly. . .  I'm just guessing here, but doesn't the curve also make the width the drivers have to interact with actually SMALLER (if I'm remembering what I've read looking up stuff on OB speaker designs) - roughly to the width of the mounting surface of the atohm driver, or about 6"-ish, making that the optimal theoretical "flat" front baffle width for the existing crossover as designed?  If I'm on the right track here, I've got to say that was one smooth engineering trick.

Sorry if all the remedial questions are getting boring to those who actually know things. . . :)

Danny Richie

Re: Center Channel for av123 Strata Mini
« Reply #55 on: 23 Feb 2009, 12:49 am »
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Then maybe a question aimed at Danny - does (or how does) the curved face of the mini play into this equation?


I only designed the crossover for that speaker. It was pretty much Mark's baby. The look and shape may have had more to do with esthetics. I would have opted for less baffle area around the drivers to minimize surface reflections. Curving them like they did certainly helped though.