MF7 Owners - Sibilance?

kip_ · « **on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:17 pm »

Anyone who owns MF7s have you found them to be a tiny bit sibilant with male voices? It's not overly offensive, but lately I've been noticing just a tiny bit of sibilance in male voices on things like news broadcasts (I notice it the most here)/rock music/movies. Am I imagining things or have others noticed this? It could easily be my receiver or my room...

I have no room treatments and a cheapo receiver without an external amp. I've noticed this using both my ps3 and cable box as sources so I think I can rule that out.

FWIW, this the only thing I've found about them in ~7 months that I wouldn't call neutral... and I'll certainly be able to live with it. I guess I could try A/Bing with my surround speakers but that would be a PITA.

Rob S. · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:39 pm »

I haven't found them to have sibilance... I've had them in my good room w/ treatments and found them to sound great integrated w/ 15" sealed Epik Valor sub. Imaging and tonality was good/ very good and since they were pulled out 5' from my front wall, they had a nice depth (3D) qualities. Of course as I turned them up beyond their volume limits they lost some of their magic. The room is 17 x 21 and as long as they were played to reasonable sound levels, I enjoy them.

Where I have them set up permanently is in a built in bookcase (flush to the wall) on the sides of a 50in plasma w/ Arcam receiver, Cambridge DVD player. They don't sound quite as good as in my 2channel room. They lose some of the depth, and imaging is note quite as precise, but I would expect that.

Maybe try adjusting their placement some?

Rob S.

kip_ · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:48 pm »

They are approximately 18" from the rear wall and I can't pull them out any further from the wall due to the walkway... I'm using them as part of a HT. They are about 3 feet from one side wall and over 10 from the other side wall (living room opens to dinette on one side). You can see some photos of my room here:

http://flickr.com/photos/wpmegee/tags/gik/

The room is 14x17, opening up to the kitchen/dinette on the side you can't see in the photos above, with ceilings that go from 8-12'

I was planning on getting some room treatments but honestly i don't need to spend any money at all on HT right now. Though I did cave in and buy a center MF7 which should be on the way soon.

I have heard much worse sibilance from other speakers... mostly car speakers. I'm very happy with the detail and overall tonality otherwise. It's just barely noticeable but now that I have noticed it it's bothering me...

chrismercurio · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:49 pm »

Nope.

Can you tell us about your gear? Sources, amplification, and wire? I think the problem is there. I use okay midfi with mine (Arcam) but have borrowed much better and more costly electronics. They just improve with the better stuff.

IMO, Rick does excellent crossovers and these speakers do not exhibit the problem you describe unless fed a signal that includes it. Basically it isn't the speaker.

I hope I didn't beat the dead horse too much,

Chris

p.s. I re-read your post. I also have a PS3 and think it sounds great. Can you borrow a nicer AVR or integrated from someone to try? Even a medium powered tube amp would shed some light on what my be the issue...

kip_ · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:19 pm »

I'm using a Harman-Kardon AVR-247, 14 gauge generic speaker wire from walmart. I've been drooling over an amp from Emotiva... I just have other things to put $5-700 towards right now... decisions decisions. I know a few local audiophiles I'll see if I can borrow something.

cadobhuk · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 11:57 pm »

I personally have 2x parasound hca-1200 for driving my SSRs. Have you considered used parasound amps from audiogon? Mine cost me about $400 each, they sold for about $1k new when they were still in production, and IrritateGuy from sound&vision forums recommended them over the emotiva lpa-1 to me, saying the damping factor, crosstalk and snr specs did not look impressive to him. Although the lpa-1 was their low end 7-channel amp that sold for $500 new, which particular emotiva amp did you have in mind?

kip_ · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Jan 2009, 12:45 am »

cadobhuk- was looking at the XPA-3 or XPA-5. Are you using the HCA-1205 or HCA-1206? I can't find the 1200 on parasound's website. Is it 2 or 5 channel and if 5 channel why do you need 2 of them?

I've listened to several singers/speakers here in the last few minutes on the MF7s- two males and one female, and I honestly don't know if I'm hearing sibilance or not. The esses definitely sound emphasized a bit to me. Is this a characteristic of rock music in general? The highs are not at all sibilant or bright this appears to be all in the midrange. If the MF7s have a tonal character that can be described as anything other than neutral i would have to say they are a little forward and "punchy" in the mids. I can't say they are warm or bright. Perhaps slightly on the cool side.

I hooked up my surrounds (ELT525s from AV123) as mains temporarily, and A/B'd them... the sibilance was present in each... Overall I'd say the ELT525 is significantly less detailed, with worse imaging, and somewhat brighter. They are a very engaging speaker however - no speaker with a 5.25" woofer has the right to have as nice bass as they have - and the MF7s are nearly triple the price.

cadobhuk · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Jan 2009, 02:17 am »

hca-1200 is discontinued and is not even present on parasound discontinued products page. It is a stereo amp, so I need one for fronts and one for rears (using the 1201 monoblock for the center). XPA-5 has 200 damping factor, while the hca-1205 like other hca amps has 800, although I'm not sure what it means but I know more is better. Here's an hca-1205 for sale.

kip_ · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jan 2009, 04:10 am »

This review http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5review1.shtm makes me think the XPA-5 can probably outstrip most things reasonably priced that Parasound sells.

I'm having someone come over tomorrow with an integrated amp and we are gonna get to the bottom of this aa

Edit: Also cadobhuk, I found this article on Audioholics that suggests damping factors over 50 or so don't have much effect:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response-page-2

kip_ · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2009, 01:19 pm »

Okay, I tried an integrated amp with them and cut my receiver's preamp and amp out of the loop. I still heard it to a lesser degree. I don't think what I'm hearing is sibilance per se I just think the upper end of the vocals could be a little less harsh and more natural. I definitely don't hear this in the highs. If I play with the "treble" trim on my receiver this does nothing so I think the problem is in the upper midrange. Does anyone think this could be caused by speaker cables or my room? My room is quite large by the time you include the attached kitchen/dinette, I'm thinking the kitchen/dinette is a huge sinkhole for sound with really tall vaulted ceilings.

chrismercurio · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2009, 03:25 pm »

I would rule out wire. It isn't that it can't affect tonality...but it probably isn't it. I have used some very pedestrian wire with this speaker and it always sounds great. If you have a lot of hard surfaces in your room it could produce the problem you are describing.

kip_ · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jan 2009, 10:38 pm »

My room is carpeted but there are a lot of bare ceiling, wall space, and a glass door to the patio. I can't treat it because a) it's an apartment and i can't put hooks in the wall, and b) i'm not going to live here forever.

The only thing I could possibly do with treatments is some tri-corner traps, and put some bass traps on the back wall on top of a table.

cadobhuk · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 08:51 am »

You can put the treatment panels onto anything that will act as a stand. My 24"x48" oc 703 boards I put up on the 20" wide styrofoam pieces.

kip_ · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Apr 2009, 02:29 am »

I recently had a chance to listen to some far inferior speakers in a room similar to mine - tallish ceilings, mostly bare walls, and untreated. I heard much the same sibilance. I think my ears are just particularly sensitive to these kinds of room effects. I can't wait to buy a house and treat a room...

chrismercurio · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 07:46 am »

I just popped these back into my system after moving my GPA/Altec system to a friend's house. They really are great. I surely miss the efficiency, bottom end, dynamics and detail of the other speakers, but these are amazing for what they do and the price they do it at. Hope you get your room issues figured out. A big squishy couch could do wonders....

Chris

kip_ · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 01:11 pm »

Chris - while i'd love to drop $600 on room treatments right now I'm currently saving for a house down payment so no new toys!

cadobhuk · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 05:35 pm »

you dont need $600 for treatments if you have some spare time to DIY them. Mine cost me less than $200 for 12.

kip_ · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 06:19 pm »

Quote from: cadobhuk on 23 Apr 2009, 05:35 pm

you dont need $600 for treatments if you have some spare time to DIY them. Mine cost me less than $200 for 12.

The exact dollar amount isn't the point. I'm not spending any more on my HT until I move, and who knows how happy I'll be with my system in a year and in another room. I have the spare time but not the spare room to work on them. No garage or yard.

cadobhuk · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 09:00 pm »

I made mine inside the house. I used hot glue instead of spray adhesive so there wasn't any bad smell left, and put some plastic down to cover the carpet.

JP78 · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 09:11 pm »

is the "s" exaggerated during playback, or would you describe the upper midrange having a hard and metallic sound to it? if it's the former you need to upgrade the avr, if it's the latters you need to soften the sound with a tubed dac or something. it seems like you may have not had much experience with tubes...if this is the case an inexpensive tubed dac (mhdt, cal labs, scott nixon, etc) will go a long way towards fixing the stridency you describe. there's a reason a lot of music lovers (and audiophiles!) can't live without tubes. happy hunting

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