The Wheels Are Off GM's Claim To Be The World's largest Automaker...

lazydays · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 05:27 pm »

Quote from: sbrtoy on 23 Jan 2009, 03:15 am

Gary, your rhetoric is a bit tired...if you weren't so dogmatic people might take your side more. For once admit that someone else in the world can build a superior vehicle...seriously do you think all GM products are the best? In-depth studies and consumer choices tell a different story.

And by the way, the new F-150 is a very nice truck, GM is running scared with their cheap shot ad campaign....

I made a living for many years taking apart what everybody sold, and then taking those parts to task. I do have a good idea what's good and what's bad. The new Ford truck is a nice truck, but the drive train is lacking. The newest Dodge is by a long shot the best riding truck built, and looks to be the best off road truck being sold right now. Take all five of the full sized trucks out and work them hard, and put them up wet. I think you'll be surprised at what one, two, and three will be.
As for G.M. (truck markets) running scared, you need to make a visit to the test tracks in AZ. I've seen them all busted up; from the ones sold here to a couple not sold here.
gary

thunderbrick · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 05:30 pm »

And you conclusion from AZ is what, especially regarding GM products? Curious minds want to know.........

lazydays · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 23 Jan 2009, 04:09 am

I work with two one-ton pick up trucks, an F350 and a GMC 3500, and the staff can choose which one to drive. They choose the GMC overwhelmingly.
I drive the Ford only because I don't want us to drive the GMC to 250K and we'll still be stuck with the Ford.

normally when you are speaking of one ton chassis trucks you are now looking at a deisel engine in it. There's a big difference in deisels, and don't let anyone tell you different. On the dynos at work we never was able to destroy a Cummins engine. Wore out a couple, but they still ran well (750,000+ miles on the computer). The Duramax has gone thru three different redesigns, and is starting to shine as well. The Navastar is a distant third. Now we are looking at a new smaller generation of deisels for heavyduty half tons. Don't know a lot about them, but the Dodge is also being built by Cummins and the G.M. is built by Power Train. The one from Ford is kind of an unknown at this point. The one advantage that the G.M. truck has over the Ford and Dodge is the Allison transmission. The torque convertor in it is the only one that can take the beating from a deisel engine. Funny thing about the six speed automatic in the G.M. truck is that it was a design for Ford motor company, but they were too tight to pay the price for one. So we put in a GMC. Dodge wanted it as well, but Detroit won't let them sell it to Dodge. In about three years look for an Allison in the Dodge (there's a no compete clause) while Ford is still chasing electrical and transmission problems.
gary

lazydays · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 05:54 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 23 Jan 2009, 05:30 pm

And you conclusion from AZ is what, especially regarding GM products? Curious minds want to know.........

that's where most of the testing areas are for the bigger manufacturers. You see them come back on the flatbed truck sometimes looking like they fell out of an airplane. But in the end that's the only way you find bad parts designs from good ones. All three of the big trucks are good trucks, but there are some differences in them if you actually use them as a truck. People don't just design a truck and then build it. They'll redesign parts in it a dozen times or more. They crash them (not what you see on TV), they overload them. We even went so far as to roll one down a mountain side (sideways) just to see how well the infrastructure of the chassis was. I've seen some ugly stuff over the years.
gary

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 06:04 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 23 Jan 2009, 04:09 am

I work with two one-ton pick up trucks, an F350 and a GMC 3500, and the staff can choose which one to drive. They choose the GMC overwhelmingly.
I drive the Ford only because I don't want us to drive the GMC to 250K and we'll still be stuck with the Ford.

Step one:
Sabotage the Ford.

Step two:
Purchase new Chevy. aa

Randy · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 06:17 pm »

Toyota's not doing so well these days either. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/AUTO01/901230415

BTW, I just purchased a new 4 Runner and am hugely disappointed with it so far. It's main saving grace was that i was charged $6300 below the sticker price, but I am sorry I did not stick with Nissan. I'd driven Pathfinders since 1991.

sbrtoy · « **Reply #26 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 08:01 pm »

Quote from: lazydays on 23 Jan 2009, 05:27 pm

I made a living for many years taking apart what everybody sold, and then taking those parts to task. I do have a good idea what's good and what's bad. The new Ford truck is a nice truck, but the drive train is lacking. The newest Dodge is by a long shot the best riding truck built, and looks to be the best off road truck being sold right now. Take all five of the full sized trucks out and work them hard, and put them up wet. I think you'll be surprised at what one, two, and three will be.
As for G.M. (truck markets) running scared, you need to make a visit to the test tracks in AZ. I've seen them all busted up; from the ones sold here to a couple not sold here.
gary

You are not the only person who has extensive industry knowledge. And you are not the only one on here to spend a great deal of time on test tracks, my experience however has been quite different from yours regarding those products so I guess I must be misguided....I'm sure GM will be back on top in no time, no need to change a thing!

lazydays · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 03:59 am »

Quote from: sbrtoy on 23 Jan 2009, 08:01 pm

Quote from: lazydays on 23 Jan 2009, 05:27 pm

I made a living for many years taking apart what everybody sold, and then taking those parts to task. I do have a good idea what's good and what's bad. The new Ford truck is a nice truck, but the drive train is lacking. The newest Dodge is by a long shot the best riding truck built, and looks to be the best off road truck being sold right now. Take all five of the full sized trucks out and work them hard, and put them up wet. I think you'll be surprised at what one, two, and three will be.
As for G.M. (truck markets) running scared, you need to make a visit to the test tracks in AZ. I've seen them all busted up; from the ones sold here to a couple not sold here.
gary

You are not the only person who has extensive industry knowledge. And you are not the only one on here to spend a great deal of time on test tracks, my experience however has been quite different from yours regarding those products so I guess I must be misguided....I'm sure GM will be back on top in no time, no need to change a thing!

Actually I spoke as an outsider who delt with almost all the big companys. My best customer was Ford and Navastar followed by Mercedes thru several of their holdings. Right now Ford and Navastar are not getting a long very well and each one blames the other for their problems (it all comes out of Dearborne in the end). It's well known that Ford has drive train problems in the last few years. Most are major electrical and a couple major mechanical) that they can't seem to get a handle on.
I never said that G.M. will be on top of anything! I have no iron in that fire. But will call a spade when I see a spade. But I do know that if Dodge goes under the new Fords will have a Cummins engine in them for your first clue (I've even heard that right from the Ford engineers themselves).
gary

ajzepp · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 04:13 am »

Which one does not belong: My amp. My Speakers. My Preamp. My DAC. My truck.

The answer is: My Truck. As much as I've prided myself on being able to put together a great American/Canadian built audio system, I have never bought an American car. My progression has gone from 79'Mazda RX-7, to '90 Eagle Talon (i.e. Mitsubishi Eclipise), to '00 Mazda Protege, to my current Toyota Tacoma. I don't anticipate my next car to be American either, though I'd love to find one that I felt was a good buy for me.

WerTicus · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 03:13 pm »

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 03:15 pm »

Brown · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 03:34 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Jan 2009, 03:43 am

Sales for 2008...

Am I missing something. They sold haw many vehicles ? They lost money ? They deserve what they get. Sometimes one needs to fail before they get it right.
There was a man who lived in Penn. and started a small business. He failed three times. Lost everything each time. Today we know him as Mr Hershy. As in Chocolate. We were watching TV the other night and found a show called future cars. today right now one could have a car with fuel cells, compressed air, super diesel or electric. There are viable companies ready to go. The cars we saw were just amazing.
If GM would STOP selling us a lifestyle instead of what we want. forget the fancy commercials. Make an info commercial and explain why its a better engineered car or truck. Give me a better all around vehicle not a heated steering wheel or wipers for my headlights. GM makes some VG products and can do much better. They need to instill trust again.
I know in my heart that an American car manf. CAN make the best in the world. We did once and we CAN once again. WAKE UP GM, wake up.

Brown · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 03:34 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Jan 2009, 03:43 am

Sales for 2008...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 04:05 pm »

Brown (and others)...I'm no unabashed GM fanboy (I've never bought one....disclaimer: my Dad does for many years), but I have to say GM has now arisen and is making some nice, no-excuse vehicles.

Assuming they make it past this decidedly rough patch, which no automaker is surviving without substantial losses, there are coming in the next 2 years a pretty substantial pipeline of even better vehicles.

I see Ford in much the same way (and I've never even considered buying Ford in the past).

To again paraphrase hockey great Wayne Gretzky: “skate where the puck is going to be, not where it has been”

Chrysler - fuhgettaboutit - a lost cause that should die (now). That our government has seen fit to loan this trash company up to US$11 billion dollars (that's US$1 million, surely a significant sum x 11,000x!). Each of us should take a $5, $10 and $20 bill from our wallets now and take a match to it...as that is how much we will be wasting on this perennial loser firm.

Cerberus, it's greedy parent, should be allowed to go bust, too.

John

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 04:15 pm »

Quote from: Brown on 27 Jan 2009, 03:34 pm

today right now one could have a car with fuel cells, compressed air, super diesel or electric. There are viable companies ready to go ....................
If GM would STOP selling us a lifestyle instead of what we want.

They are giving us what we want.

All car manufacturers have these types of technology. You can't single out GM for not being the first ones to mass produce it. All manufacturers are only willing to spend the cash to R&D, design and produce what they think we'll buy. They're all guilty of tip-toeing into new releasing new technology.

Bob

nathanm · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 04:45 pm »

Sweet ad, Werticus!

lazydays · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:01 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 27 Jan 2009, 04:15 pm

Quote from: Brown on 27 Jan 2009, 03:34 pm
today right now one could have a car with fuel cells, compressed air, super diesel or electric. There are viable companies ready to go ....................
If GM would STOP selling us a lifestyle instead of what we want.

They are giving us what we want.

All car manufacturers have these types of technology. You can't single out GM for not being the first ones to mass produce it. All manufacturers are only willing to spend the cash to R&D, design and produce what they think we'll buy. They're all guilty of tip-toeing into new releasing new technology.

Bob

Bob,

actually G.M. was the first to market a hybrid but more than a decade. They were the first to sell a hydrogen fuel celled car in North America by over a decade (Seattle Washington). There's a little plant in Castelton Indiana that does the R&D on them. Allisons has had a dedicated assembly line going for about ten years now, but this technology goes into mass transportation (it all works the same). They now have buses in virtually every major market in North America, and the assembly lines have gone from one shift a day to two with a lot of overtime to meet the demands. Those buses now average about 16 to 18mpg when they were getting about six mpg. They also did a bunch of hydrogen fuel celled buses that were getting 23 mpg, and still see a couple everyday. The Fed pushed them into that technology after seeing it in a couple seminars and trade shows (note they never got a nickel in financil help). This technology has now migrated down into automobiles (sixth generation). If and whenever they figure out a safe way to refill fuel cells they are more than ready to give us the hydrogen fuel celled car the masses have longed for (at least Seattle has that base covered).
gary

lazydays · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:09 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 23 Jan 2009, 06:04 pm

Quote from: thunderbrick on 23 Jan 2009, 04:09 am
I work with two one-ton pick up trucks, an F350 and a GMC 3500, and the staff can choose which one to drive. They choose the GMC overwhelmingly.
I drive the Ford only because I don't want us to drive the GMC to 250K and we'll still be stuck with the Ford.
Step one:
Sabotage the Ford.

Step two:
Purchase new Chevy. aa

Navastar is history! They just announced the plant closing for the Ford deisel this morning (what did I tell you?) Right now it looks like Dodge has won the battle for the heavyduty truck market as was predicted fifteen years ago.
gary

sbrtoy · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:26 pm »

Sadly consumer demand is fickle and the shift is already on back to SUV's and large trucks....too bad gas will rise dramatically again in the next 3 years and the market for their trade-ins will collapse once again.

On the hybrid front, glad to hear GM was first, now maybe they could work on being relevant....

2008 Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicle Sales by Model (through December 2008)

Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon: 3,683 (June/July/August/October/December only)
Chevy Malibu Hybrid:    1,811(June/July/August/October/December only)
Honda Accord Hybrid:    198
Honda Civic Hybrid:    31,297
Lexus 600h: 330 (through March only)
Lexus 400h:    15,200
Nissan Altima Hybrid:    4,242 (through May only)
Saturn Aura Hybrid: 141 (June/July/August/October/December only)
Saturn Vue Hybrid:    1,748(June/July/August/October/December only)
Toyota Camry Hybrid:    44,384 (through November only)
Toyota Highlander Hybrid:    19,391
Toyota Prius:    158,884
Cadillac Escalade 2-Mode Hybrid:    537 (August/October/December only)
Year to Date Total for vehicles above:    281,846

Notes:

General Motors YTD Hybrid Sales: 14,439

Toyota/Lexus YTD Hybrid Sales: 241,405

_______________________________________ _______________________

2007 Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles Sales

Ford Escape

11,444 (through June 2007)
Honda Accord    3,405
Honda Civic    32,575
Honda Insight    3
Lexus RX400h    17,291
Lexus LS 600h    541 (September/October/November Sales Only)
Nissan Altima    7209
Mercury Mariner    868 (May and June 2007 sales only)
Saturn VUE    3,969 (through May 2007 only)
Toyota Camry    49,508 (through November 2007 only)
Toyota Highlander    16,284 (January through July 2007 and November 2007 only)
Toyota Prius    181,221


Total for the vehicles above:    324,318

_______________________________________ ___________________________

2006 Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicle Sales

Honda Accord 5,598

Honda Civic 31,253
Honda Insight    722
Ford Escape Hybrid    19,228
Mercury Mariner Hybrid    3,375
Toyota Camry Hybrid 27,336 (excludes December 2006 sales; on sale April 2006)
Toyota Prius 106,971
Toyota Highlander    31,485
Lexus RX 400h    20,161
Lexus GS 450h    513 (Excludes October-December 2006 sales; on sale April 2006)


TOTAL:    246,642*

*2006 Hybrid Sales Total does not include December Camry Hybrid Sales and GS450h October-December sales.

_______________________________________ _______________________________________ _

2005 Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicle Sales

Honda Accord    16,826
Honda Civic    25,864
Honda Insight    666
Ford Escape    18,797
Toyota Prius    107,897
Toyota Highlander    17,989 (on the market in June 2005)
Lexus 400h    20,674 (on the market in April 2005)
Mercury Mariner    998

TOTAL 209,711

_______________________________________ ____________________________

Breakdown of 2004 Registrations (courtesy of R.L. Polk)

Ford Escape    2,566
Honda Insight    587
Honda Civic    25,586
Honda Accord    653
Toyota Prius    53,761

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 06:32 pm »

281,000 hybrid vehicles sold in 08.
wow. that's stunning.

How many tens of millions of total vehicle sales where there?

Doesn't look like there's much public interest to me.
Bob