[thunderbrick]

Two years ago I was in the market for a 2-3 year old Bimmer.  Have owned Saabs, Volvos and BMWs before.  I gave up on finding the right car and concentrated on finding salesman at a BMW dealership that didn't make me wanna strangle the SOB.
One dealer was my last hope and I took my wife along (we are both in our young 50's).  This greasy bastard/moron (at a BMW dealer) stood outside in the cold chain smoking (we both hate) and pounced us right away.  He tried to force us into his office where the sun was shining in our face, the plants were dead (a big no-no for meine frau), and it was a dump.  We left.

Next time in that city (a big-time college town) I dropped in again and walked right past him, and just walked around.  I was nicely approached by the world's oldest hippie salesman, but at least he wore a tie.  We sat down and casually talked about the experience I was looking for, not about a specific car.  We didn't agree on everything but we got along well.  VERY important for me.  In the ensuing months he periodically would call to tell me he had something I might like, and some of them were good deals.
Eventually I found the right car and bought it from him, in a very pleasant low-key manner.  Once the deal was sealed I asked to speak to the manager and absolutely unloaded on him for the boorish behavior of that jackass.
Among other points, I told him, as others have pointed out, that BMW has a certain cachet that was completely inconsistent with this jerk, that the SOB REFUSED to listen to what he was being told, and was really offensive.
The manager took my comments very seriously (I felt) but lamented that the guy sold more cars than anyone else there.  How in the hell he could treat up-scale people (not necessarily me) like that and sell BMWs I couldn't figure out.  He did offer to work on the guy's approach.  As I  was leaving word had gotten out and the finance manager and other salesmen came to me and THANKED me for raising hell, that they had been unsuccessful in getting it fixed.  They hated how he lowered professional standards, too.

I just don't get it.  I will eagerly buy when the experience is pleasant. Why do people fall for this shit??

Another dealer in Illinois had the same car I wanted but with much higher miles.  I was treated very well, given the keys on the honor system and told to go play.  When I told them of the low-mileage car I had seen and the price, he told me flat-out (and nicely) that I should buy the other car, that he couldn't give me as good a deal. He will be at the top of my shopping list next time I buy.

End of rant.  For now.

BTW, Bob's place had some nice salesman a few years back when I was buying Saabs.

[CSI]

I'm sure many of us can come up with a good salesman/bad salesman tale. Mine resulted in a number of lost Honda sales. In 1984 two of the hottest imports were the Honda Prelude Coupe and the Mazda 626 Sports Sedan. I really wanted the Prelude and convinced my wife we should test drive it. The Honda store was busy and when I finally got a salesman to acknowledge me he told me I couldn't drive the car! The only demo they had available, which was parked right in front of us, belonged to the Sales Manager's wife and - although the keys were in it - he said she might come back from lunch any minute and I was out of luck. He wouldn't even consider letting us drive one of the 6 or 7 parked on the lot. In fact he made it clear that he would be doing me a big favor to sell me one. We left insulted and disgusted. Next stop was Mazda. They were equally busy but a young salesman named Tim (whom, I noticed, had his picture up as salesman of the year) popped out of an office with a friendly greeting. I told him I wanted to drive a 626 and my wife chimed in that if we bought one it would have to be silver. He laughed and apologized for being so busy (he had deals working in two cubicles). He made a quick apology to his existing customers then led us out to the lot where he proceeded to move his own demo (which was red) so we could drive a new silver one! He thanked us in advance for driving it, urged us to take it on the freeway and push it hard on the on ramp, and asked us to come find him when we got back. I guess we looked like solid citizens but I was amazed that he didn't even ask to see my driver's license! Needless to say we bought the car, drove it happily for over 100,000 miles and bought several more Mazda's over the years from the same guy. We took a brief trip in the 626 with my in-laws who, up until then, were diehard Buick buyers. They were so impressed by the Mazda they changed brands and have owned them exclusively ever since (mostly mini vans). So one good salesman was responsible for about 10 Mazda sales to my family.
I admire Honda's but they have never seen my money and probably never will.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thanks for the comment Bob.
I am VERY proud of the salesmen here, all are extremely professional and use low pressure 'tactics'.
The dealership I'm at has Volvo's and SAAB's, one of the salesmen was (still is????) the highest producing Volvo salemen in the United States. To his credit, he works harder than ANY employee I've EVER worked with in my life. He's also one of the nicest guys I've had the honor of meeting. In fact, I don't recall an obscenity ever coming from his mouth.

Bob

[lonewolfny42]

"The Wheels Are Off".....
There will be a few less wheels now....off to car heaven...... 

[thunderbrick]

Thanks for the comment Bob.
I am VERY proud of the salesmen here, all are extremely professional and use low pressure 'tactics'.
The dealership I'm at has Volvo's and SAAB's, one of the salesmen was (still is????) the highest producing Volvo salemen in the United States. To his credit, he works harder than ANY employee I've EVER worked with in my life. He's also one of the nicest guys I've had the honor of meeting. In fact, I don't recall an obscenity ever coming from his mouth.

Bob

Well, S***!, why not?

[Bob in St. Louis]

Yea Chris, I read that exact same article this morning. 
Beyond the plans we have for this coming weekend, I've put my household on "financial lock-down" until further notice.
If we hadn't already made (financial) commitments that we can't back out of, we wouldn't be going.
Being a SAAB employee never looked so grim. 

Bob

[lazydays]

Yea Chris, I read that exact same article this morning. 
Beyond the plans we have for this coming weekend, I've put my household on "financial lock-down" until further notice.
If we hadn't already made (financial) commitments that we can't back out of, we wouldn't be going.
Being a SAAB employee never looked so grim. 

Bob

Bob,
better think of it as a Volvo or SAAB employee. I'd say the plants will be shut down before the first of May. Too much of a financil drain, and it's really hard to sell something these days that's not turning anykind of a profit. Yet the Volvo truck lines are doing very well these days (least wise they were four months ago). A source in Detroit told me awhile back that Toyota (along with Jeep) has made overtures into buying the hummer line lock stock & barrel. Looks like Saturn will wind up being a white elephant as it just dosn't fit in with anybody unless they're out of Europe. They'd work well with Chrysler, but they don't have the money. Expect Fiat to buy that division, or maybe even Honda (they use Honda engines anyway).
    I look for GMC to be nothing but a commercial product line as it was many years ago, and the Chevy truck lines to pretty much remain as they are but more orientated to a private consumer. The news about Pontiac is nothing new as it has been speculated for the last couple of years. In the end it all boils down to the eternal REIT, and 12.5% three years running is the gold standard.
gary

[TheChairGuy]

The latest on SAAB's travails: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2009/gb20090223_058017.htm?chan=globalbiz_europe+index+page_top+stories

I keep thinking that the brand would be an ideal fit for BMW....a sporty, larger, 4 cylinder turbocharged hatchback front wheel drive alternative to the Mini brand.  Ditch the 9-5, axe the 9-3 sedan...leave only the 9-3 sportwagon and convertible and built a new version in the classic SAAB silhouette for the next version.  Make it a 100,000 unit per year niche car line (like Mini), build up residuals so it's an in-demand vehicle and let it roll

In the US, Mini would fill the $20-30K range, SAAB the $30-$40K range and BMW after that.  The BMW 1-series might or might not be expendable at that point

I just got back from doing 1000 miles round to LA and back here to San Fran.  I got 30mpg highway on my '99 9-3 hatch (at 70mph average), fit everything needed for 9 days away/3 people in the hatch and the seats are nearly perfect. I much prefer the softer Scandinavian interior design to the more stern German ones I've seen and been in.

The brand is not for everyone...GM made the total mistake of trying to make it an everycar instead of building on the unique carved out identity it already has to many.

Oh well, a boy can hope

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

Interesting plan there John.
But at this point, I'm 100% concerned about keeping my job. My loyalty to "whomever owns it" is out the window. I don't care if GM keeps it, the Swede government, the Chinese, or another car manufacture. I can hoist somebody else's flag at the drop of a hat if the paychecks keep coming in. 

Screw loyalty. It doesn't pay the bills.

"Bob @ Saab" - for now

[TheChairGuy]

Screw loyalty indeed, Bob

Under ordinary circumstances, a bevy of suitors might be out there for the brand....but I'm not sure today

Hang tuff - maybe it will all work out (I read that in a country of 9 million Swedes, that 150,000 are employed by their native auto industry...so they may have to rescue SAAB or face economic calamity)

The Trollhatten assembly factory in Sweden is relatively modern, and efficient (albeit the labor cost is high in Sweden as a significant downside)

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

As you (John TCG) probably recall, the dealer I work at handles Saab and Volvo both. I soley represent the "Saab side".
That being said, I've also read that Ford is wanting to drop Volvo (also from Sweden).
So it's kind of a double hit to my little corner of the world. That gives the Swede government a little more to chew on, not just Saab. The Chinese are also looking at Volvo as a possible purchase in addition to the Sabb line.
Remind me never to play the game "Monopoly" with a person from China. 
Volvo article > HERE <.

Maybe I should go down the street to the Lamborghini dealership.  aa

Bob - Whore for hire

[drphoto]

Hey Bob, howz the quality on the newer SAABs? From the really small sample of people I knew through the years who had the old 900 series, they were a nightmare. Did the 9-3 get better?

There's a car lot near me that has a really cool looking 9-3 wagon. They're asking $6K. I've not stopped to examine....I'm sure it has a lot of miles. Should I even consider looking?

I like it because it's really unique. I've never seen one like it before. Wagons are rare, and this one is an odd, sort of sage green color.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Well, my recommendation depends on the year, model, and which engine. It's hard to give a definitive yes or no across the board. The newer (07, 08, 09) models seem to be much better than the 03-06(ish). They made a BUNCH of changes for 07 (on the 9³) and made things quite a bit better. For a while there, I was really regretting the move from Chevrolet to Saab, based entirely on the 03,04,05 model 9³. Those should all be set on fire and put out of our misery.
If you can get the last eight digits of the VIN number of the Saab (or any General Motors vehicle) you're looking at before you buy it, I'll dig up some service history. The VIN tag is on the lower corner of the driver side windshield. Next time you go by the car lot, have a pencil and paper in hand.

Bob

[Bob in St. Louis]

Several new articles relating to the Saab/GM/Opel "thing" > HERE <.
The first and third stories relate to the latest news, the rest is just 'fluffy stuff'.

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

In my email box today from GM/SAAB:

Dear John,

You’ve always known us as somewhat of an unconventional company. From our very first days, when a group of unassuming jet engineers decided that driving should feel more like flying, we’ve had a natural affinity to seek the not-so-obvious path. Buoyed by a curious mix of ingenuity and optimism, we’ve always found our way.

Today, our sights are set on a new destination: independence.

Last week, General Motors submitted its viability plan to the U.S. Department of Treasury that outlined the corporation’s long-term restructuring goals. In that plan, GM stated that it would actively pursue measures that could result in Saab Automobile AB, including all of Saab’s global operations, becoming an independent company.

Saab has had several different types of ownership during its storied history. Recently, the first step toward re-establishing its independence was taken when Saab Automobile AB in Sweden filed for reorganization under a self-managed Swedish court process that will attempt to create a fully independent business entity. The reorganization in Sweden allows Saab to continue operating, while new ownership possibilities are being pursued. Current business is unaffected during this restructuring process.

So, what exactly does all this mean?

To current Saab owners and loyalists, be assured that all warranties on Saab vehicles remain valid. The warranty for both new and Certified Pre-Owned Saab vehicles are provided by GM and remain intact. GM will support continued availability of parts and service. Prepaid scheduled maintenance also remains in effect on all current product offerings.

To those who have recently expressed interest in buying a new Saab, we’ll be there for you as well. All of Saab’s current product offerings remain available. While these times may seem turbulent and uncertain, our cars are just as safe, just as fuel-efficient and just as fun-to-drive as ever. With the full backing of all warranties, you can drive with confidence knowing that your Saab will be covered under its warranty.

We are excited by the potential opportunities tomorrow will bring. And we’re eager to start anew. During the reorganization period, your Saab Dealer stands ready to assist you with all your sales and service needs. In addition, Saab Customer Assistance is available at (800) 955-9007. While it may not be the most conventional path to take, for those who know Saab, you’re well aware – we know no other way. With the spirit of Saab leading us, we hope you'll join us for the ride.

Sincerely,

Mark C. McNabb
Vice President
Premium Channel
General Motors Corporation

[Bob in St. Louis]

Well, that's a pretty corney letter John. But at least it's (some kind of) comfirmation about what they're doing with the warranty, parts, CPO, etc....
At least I have a little more piece of mind I'm not lying to my customers when I tell them "it'll all be ok". 

Bob

p.s. By the way John. I found a picture of your Saab:

[drphoto]

Hey Bob, I haven't had time to stop and check out that wagon, but I did notice it is a 2000 model. Worth a look, or just keep drivin' past the lot?

BTW: I haven't had time to build my OB GR servo subs either! All the parts are just sitting in their boxes.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Hey Doctor,
If it's a 2000 wagon, that makes it a 9⁵, not a 9³.
Those are good cars, I like 'em.
Next time you drive by, look at it's 'butt'. If it's got one single tailpipe on the left side, that makes it a 4 cylinder. If it's got double pipes on the left side, it's a 6 cyl.
{Unless somebody has been monkeying with the muffler and put some aftermarket thing on.}

Four cylinders have a timing chain which have no maintenance interval. As long as the owner has been good about changing the oil, there's no worry. However, if it sounds "rattly" on the passenger side of the car (while it's running obviously) then run away fast. Very fast. To replace the chain, (iirc) most Saabs require the engine to be removed to replace the chain, and associated tensioners, etc...
If it's a 6, the timing belt should be changed every 60K. Other wise somebody gets to spend a lot of money when it breaks. A couple grand should cover the cost of a broken timing belt.

Common problems on '00 wagons:
- All Saab have a problem with pixels missing on the "SID" ("Saab Information Display").
About $400 should cover that depending on the type of SID it has. Do a Google search for "Saab SID" and you'll find some DIY tweaks to repair it yourself for much cheaper. You'll need a special tool to remove the SID or radio. Search ebay for "Saab radio key", you'll find them for about $3. A Ford radio removal key will also work.

- If the engine temperature gauge ever falls to "full cold" while you're driving and the check engine light immediately comes on, replace the temperature sending unit. Cost is about $25.

- Careful pushing on the hazard flasher button. If you put too much "ass" into it, the button will fall inside the dash to a far away place you can't retrieve.  Of course the exterior lights will be flashing and you can't turn them off. If this happens, well, Sucks to be you. 

- All Saabs have hood and trunk emblems that are designed to peel off leaving you a nice chrome badge. 
Most emblems are about $35 - $45 depending on year and model. Double sided tape hold them on. A little patience and you can replace it yourself. Get some plastic razor blades from an auto parts store to aid in the removal of the emblem. The hood (on most) is aluminum. Don't pry it off.

- Transmission mounts are pretty common on all Saabs regardless of engine size older than the 2003 sport sedan models. For some reason I can't recall the cost (it's Saturday and my brain isn't in "Saab mode"), but if memory serves, the mount is $150(ish) plus the hour labor we charge to install it.

- Keep an eye on the tailpipe when you start the car and while you're driving the car. If you see grayish smoke, it's going to need a turbo soon. Total cost (for most models) with parts, tax and labor is about $1,700.

- Common(ish) for these models are an intermittent "no crank" symptom. Usual component that's failed is the gear position switch. The part cost about $350 plus a couple hours labor to check the components in 'the chain' and replace the switch.

- Also intermittent weird starting conditions can be caused by a loose battery cable at the starter. Happens a lot on these for some reason.

- The plastic bezel on the left side of the driver seat often break due to lazy fat asses that drag across as they exit the car. Cost is about $50(ish) depending on the amount of buttons located on the bezel (option package dependent).

- Miscellaneous random little light bulbs that create the back lighting for the instrument panel controls and buttons are common to burn out (more so than any other car I've seen). The bulbs are about $8 each, but there's dozens of them. None effect the operation of a given system, just makes it harder to find them while driving at night.
If the dash bezel has a wood grain cover on it, expect the wood grain to crack in several places during R&R (removal and replacement). The pieces will need to be removed to replace the back lighting bulbs and to retrieve the aforementioned hazard switch laying inside the dash.
If the car has the carbon fiber covered dash bezel, it will still be damaged during R&R, however the cost of a carbon fiber dash bezel is something stupid like $1,600.  Yea, you read that correctly.

- Windows that come off track are usually repaired for about $22 in parts cost due to the plastic rollers on the window regulators breaking. Go to the dealer and ask for (2) "green rollers". The parts guy will know exactly what you're talking about. On second thought, get four rollers because the other front window is gong to break soon too.

Overall the car you're looking at is pretty good. The engines available for a '00 wagon are solid as long as the owner did oil changes every 5K and didn't use Quaker State or Pennzoil (too much paraffin). This is true of any car of course, but especially so in the 4 cylinder Saabs. Google search for "Saab sludge". It's a bit of a case of a design defect having the catalytic converter directly under the oil pan, but if the oil was changed, it'll be fine.
The transmissions are very solid.  No Problems there.
The major "sub-body systems" like wipers, audio, HVAC, type stuff are pretty solid.

Don't forget to get me the last eight of the VIN. 

Oh, by the way: Do you guys know what SAAB stands for?
Something An Asshole Buys.   
Hope that helps. 

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Damn Bob/Dr. SAAB....you and me outta' dialog a bit more 

Indeed, my SID is missing pixels...I will talk to my SAAB-only repair guy to see if he has a cheap fix to it.  He's quite crafty that way.

The hood decals were gone after about 5 years.  But, for $8.50 on ebay you can buy new ones.  Just measure yours (there are 3-4 sizes over the year) and the vendor will send a pair matching your vehicle.  http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories___saab-hood-emblem-decal-sticker-scania-900-93_W0QQitemZ250379963891QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQddiZ2811QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item250379963891&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1201|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

The tranny mounts are too soft from SAAB/GM and are part of the cause of poor shifting for both manual (especially) and auto (the tranny moves during hard shifting and causes glitches and lags).  For nearly the same money as GM charges for them, one can buy a (poly) tranny mount kit from GenuineSAAB in Springfield, MO and improve shifts dramatically....and pretty much end deteriorating mounts ever again 

http://www.genuinesaab.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=56_39&products_id=158

They also have the same poly motor mounts that improve things further.

All SAAB's improve measureable with sythetic stock oil.  The change to Mobil 1 recently was revelatory...building upon success in changing out the restrictive stock air filter and Bosch diverter valve for better aftermarket units from (open air) K & N and Forge diverters.

Don't forget to mention the problem heater knobs for this vintage SAAB.  They stock part breaks every 2-3 years unless your mechanic rebuilds it with a better shaft (as mine did) after the 3rd break (and I am not heavyhanded on my cars)  

ha, and yes, my window regulator broke last month...but after 9 years and 74,000 not much to grouse about.

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

Oh yea, I forgot about the HVAC mode knobs breaking. The knob is about $15, but the knob breaking is a by-product of a larger problem. There's a shaft "kit" that cost less than $50 plus a new knob and you're all set to go.

Good link about the aftermarket emblems, I didn't know that.

I've heard of people online that will sell you a re manufactured SID, but all they're doing is using the DIY methods (found online) and fixing used one's. I've actually though about doing this myself. We throw away so many SIDs that could be fixed relatively cheap, i could fix them and sell them online. I couldn't get away with reselling them to my dealership, or my customers. 

Bob