Passive or active speakers - which?

JohnR · « **Reply #20 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 08:20 am »

You guys ought to learn to read. $3800 is the estimated cost if you build it yourself

Of that, Linkwitz gets a lousy $290 for which you get full documentation and printed circuit boards.

Andrikos · « **Reply #21 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 03:34 pm »

Maybe one of these days I'll go back and get my GED.
Seriously though JohnR, who said that Linkwitz makes $3800 by selling hot air?
The guy provides a top notch design (everything but the cabinets) at a price-point where "High-End" speaker manufacturers barely start going beyong the $10 woofers and $5 tweeters...

Kevin P · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 05:12 pm »

As for the price... it is about as reasonable as your going to get for a fully active design. You may not want to spend that much money on an audio system and congradulate you for your common sense but for a fully active system it is really almost impossible to get much cheaper.

Mr. Linkwitz is only charging for the plans and some of the active filter network which you couldn't normally build from scratch. All the other parts are real true parts cost without mark-up from a middleman. If it was sold through a company it would have to cost at least double that amount.

There is no way around it... if you want to go active you have to pay for all the parts. SL is only charging a nominal amount for his engineerning. It is pretty much a freebe by any standard as I don't see any way he could be making a living from the amount he is charging.

If your budget is modest I would pursue a more traditional approach. A properly designed passive system doesn't suck and your more likely to have limitations from your living space holding you back more than the issues of a properly designed passive crossover network.

DVV · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 07:15 pm »

Quote from: Andrikos

Maybe one of these days I'll go back and get my GED.
Seriously though JohnR, who said that Linkwitz makes $3800 by selling hot air?
The guy provides a top notch design (everything but the cabinets) at a price-point where "High-End" speaker manufacturers barely start going beyong the $10 woofers and $5 tweeters...

AMEN to that!

Cheers,
DVV

DVV · « **Reply #24 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 07:19 pm »

Quote from: Kevin P

As for the price... it is about as reasonable as your going to get for a fully active design. You may not want to spend that much money on an audio system and congradulate you for your common sense but for a fully active system it is really almost impossible to get much cheaper.

Mr. Linkwitz is only charging for the plans and some of the active filter network which you couldn't normally build from scratch. All the other parts are real true parts cost without mark-up from a middleman. If it was sold ...

I re-read the site and saw what I missed the first time. Agreed with Kevin regarding SL's earnings - they are indeed modest, and even more so for a man of that calibre. My hat off to him, and I say that with pleasure.

However, there are other ways which are also MOST interesting I intend to pursue, mostly because they are as simple as I can think of making. If I get anywhere I think is reasonable, I will report on this.

Cheers,
DVV

WerTicus · « **Reply #25 on:** 6 Dec 2003, 04:39 am »

I really like his design too... i wish i could hear a pair... gotta love the look of the sea's woofer and tweeter... oh so sexy!

i do wonder if the midrange detail is lacking due to the 8" mid range.... though it is magnesium so maybe its okay and the tweet does go down to 1400hz! But non the less i would have thought it to be into its breakup.

thats why im looking at this design quiet seriously atm

http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Diary.html

DVV · « **Reply #26 on:** 6 Dec 2003, 07:34 am »

Quote from: WerTicus

I really like his design too... i wish i could hear a pair... gotta love the look of the sea's woofer and tweeter... oh so sexy!

i do wonder if the midrange detail is lacking due to the 8" mid range.... though it is magnesium so maybe its okay and the tweet does go down to 1400hz! But non the less i would have thought it to be into its breakup.

thats why im looking at this design quiet seriously atm

http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Diary.html

Perhaps you should consider a 3 way speaker. Getting it right with three drivers in an active design, assuming you have gain controls for each driver, is much easier than in a passive configuration.

This would allow you to have each driver cover EXACTLY the range it was designed for, without having to stretch them to their limits. In terms of electronics, this implies a more complex crossover (but not much) and an extra amp, which could be the same as that for the tweeter, perhaps a little more beefed up.

Making a tweeter, any tweeter, go down to 1.4 kHz is, at best, very doubtful. I know the paper spec says it can make it, but I have yet to hear one operating properly that low AND on top.

Same thing about the mid/bass. If you want true deep bass, you need a larger driver, 10 inches and up, working up to say 800 Hz or so.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
DVV

WerTicus · « **Reply #27 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 06:48 am »

yeah i was going to go with a 3 way design... i thought i might try a SET valve amp running the 70000 ring radiator... then some mid powered amp for the mid range and my current 255w a channel amp for the woofers... should be killery sweet

DVV · « **Reply #28 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 08:06 am »

Quote from: WerTicus

yeah i was going to go with a 3 way design... i thought i might try a SET valve amp running the 70000 ring radiator... then some mid powered amp for the mid range and my current 255w a channel amp for the woofers... should be killery sweet

Exactly! Tweeters typically require little power, both because they are very efficient and because in spectral terms they have the least (in terms of quantity) work to do, so tubes are a very real option here.

Same goes for midrange, provided the efficiency of the driver(s) is high. I was thinking about using 30-50W pushed well into class A (high bias).

For bass, depending on the driver efficiency, I would not go below 100W whatever anyone says, and I would make it a high current capability design. If anything sucks up power, both spectrally and in terms of eefctively required energy, it's the bass, in addition to which it will, more than any other driver, tend to play impedance funnies with you.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Cheers,
DVV

JohnR · « **Reply #29 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 08:45 am »

Quote from: DVV

Making a tweeter, any tweeter, go down to 1.4 kHz is, at best, very doubtful.

That silly duffer Linkwitz. What was he thinking, he can't get anything right.

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #30 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 12:00 pm »

It's possible to do an Orion for less than the costs mentioned. The drivers are around $1200 a side and the crossover $700 if you use SLs or $350 if you use a digital one. Assuming you don't have a six channel amp you can buy a Parasound 806 for around $500. A pair of Panasonic SA-XR45s might be interesting as well. The rest is pretty simple wordwork. So the base price is under $2K plus amps.

I have a variation of the Orions/Phoenix with doubled W22s and Adire DPL12s and it came in at under $3K including construction and dbx digital crossover. I had the amps.

Regarding the overall question about active, I've owned a few and agree they make more bang for your buck.

Cheers

Steve

Oh, and the Seas Millenium tweeter does indeed play quite happily down to 1.4K. Sounds good too.

DVV · « **Reply #31 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

Quote from: DVV
Making a tweeter, any tweeter, go down to 1.4 kHz is, at best, very doubtful.

That silly duffer Linkwitz. What was he thinking, he can't get anything right.

Have you ever designed a speaker in which you asked the tweeter to go down to 1.4 kHz AND be linear in the 15-20 kHz?

Cheers,
DVV

WerTicus · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 03:58 pm »

yeah class A for the mid range and lots of power for the bass with a/b and a set for the tweeter... ohhhh baby

yeah 1.4khz for a tweeter... crazy... he wrote that he had taken it down to 800 and sparks were coming out of it but it was still not dying

Hogg · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 04:30 pm »

I'm surprised no one has mentioned ATC. They manufacture wonderful active and passive monitors. Yes, some are extraordiarily expensive but the smaller ones are affordable. Here is an article written by Billy Woodman, president of ATC on active versus passive and the benefits of active.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0403/index.html

DVV · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 07:17 pm »

Quote from: WerTicus

yeah class A for the mid range and lots of power for the bass with a/b and a set for the tweeter... ohhhh baby

yeah 1.4khz for a tweeter... crazy... he wrote that he had taken it down to 800 and sparks were coming out of it but it was still not dying

It can be done, of course, but the problem is the trade-off. You can get a tweeter down to 1 kHz, but how? How erratic or linear is it going to be? What will it be doing in the 15-20 kHz range?

1 kHz is slap bang in the middle of what is generally called midrange, which extends to 3 or 5 kHz, depending on who you ask. For a driver to reporduce rather high pressure levels in the 1-3 kHz range, where practically EVERYTHING is (even upper bass, however in harmonics only), you generally require a fairly large radiating area. In contrast with that, for very high frequencies (15 kHz and up) you need a small and light driver, be it a dome, a ribbon, a planar speaker, a Heil air motion transformer, whatever.

So, for better midrange, you might investigate 38 mm (1.5 inch) domes if you want a 2x, but for extreme treble, you'd be better off with a 25 mm (1") dome, or smaller. Acoustic Research were no fools when they produced 19 mm (0.75") domes for tweeters and 50 mm (2") domes for the midrange - and that was in the early 60-ies.

This reminds me of the seemingly eternal discussion what's better - two 6.5" drivers working in tandem, or one 10" or 12" dedicated bass driver. Everybody has their own answer to that one, and mine is - go listen. Two smaller drivers will always produce some possibly convincing but still pseudo bass below about 60 Hz, possibly even 50 Hz, but they will generally be faster and more effcient than one single driver. And vice versa, for TRUE deep bass, 50 Hz and under, in my view NOTHING beats a dedicated large cone driver.

Take this a step further and you realize a big low frequency driver practically mandates a three way speaker if each driver is allowed to work only in its optimum operating range - something has to work from 500-800 Hz up to where the proper tweeter takes over.

On the other hand, an active 3 way speaker, with properly selected drivers, will sound the living daylights out of anything else, including electrostatics in my view. Which is why I regard 2 ways speakers in general a poor compromise however you look at them, and 3 way active speakers as the ultimate music tool.

Cheers,
DVV

DVV · « **Reply #35 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 07:19 pm »

Quote from: Hogg

I'm surprised no one has mentioned ATC. They manufacture wonderful active and passive monitors. Yes, some are extraordiarily expensive but the smaller ones are affordable. Here is an article written by Billy Woodman, president of ATC on active versus passive and the benefits of active.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0403/index.html

Actually, they WERE mentioned, but elsewhere on the site.

Let me put it this way - ATC active are the ones to beat.

Cheers,
DVV

toxteth ogrady · « **Reply #36 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 09:22 pm »

Hi

I just found this thread and wanted to make a few comments about the active speakers I've heard, the Linwitz Orions.

I have heard the Orion's twice, once at Mr. Linkwitz's place and also at the home of one of his customers. In both instances I came to the conclusion that with exception to massive folded horns the Orion's have the best bass I have ever heard from any speaker. They also have the largest sweetspot I have ever encountered - what a sweetspot it is. They are delicate and effortlessly dynamic at the same time, able to resolve the most exiguous details and sock you in the gut like few speakers can. The purity of the midrange and high frequencies is unmistakable. Speaker design is supposed to be about compromise, but I believe the Orion's are the least compromised speakers I have heard for my tastes. All of this from a speaker half the size of most full range designs - great for us folks who do not want towering monoliths in their homes.

When you factor in the attributes I mention above plus the sheer value of a "system" package you begin to realize that $3800 is not much for what you get in return. Here's a tough one. Think of the best value full range speaker on the commercial market, add the appropriate amplification and cables, and what do you get - An indubitably inferior solution with a sticker price of at least $2000 more.

I think I speak for many when I say this hobby is about the journey, the learning process to achieve the best possible playback in one's home. After hearing Mr Linkwitz's design I've come to the conclusion that my odyssey into high end audio is finished, at least as far as a reference speaker is concerned.

DVV · « **Reply #37 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 10:32 pm »

Quote from: toxteth ogrady

Hi

I just found this thread and wanted to make a few comments about the active speakers I've heard, the Linwitz Orions.

I have heard the Orion's twice, once at Mr. Linkwitz's place and also at the home of one of his customers. In both instances I came to the conclusion that with exception to massive folded horns the Orion's have the best bass I have ever heard from any speaker. They also have the largest sweetspot I have ever encountered - what a sweetspot it is. They are delicate and effortlessly dy ...

I have notheard Mr Linkwitz's speakers, and most unfortunately, I am not likely to in the foreseeable future; such products are rare in my neck of the woods.

However, what you said fits in well how I have been and do perceive most active designs I have come across so far since the mid-70ies, with one or two notable exceptions (e.g. German made Klein&Hummel active speakers - beautifully made, but sound is very mediocre and way below par for the money asked).

The last I heard were a pair of mini monitors by Studer. Fast as lightning, clean, clear, only shortfall is lack of deep bass, but that would be unreasonable to hold against a pair of speakers with a net volume of what I would guess at as 7-10 litres.

The ones before that were two ATC speakers - again, clean, clear, fast, extreme resolution, but with some liver shaking bass (these were big speakers, bass driver must have been 10" or 12").

In other words, this is how active designs generally tend to sound, not to be taken as that they all sound great and the same. Of course they don't, but they do have these general properties.

Cheers,
DVV

JohnR · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 Dec 2003, 12:40 am »

Quote from: DVV

Quote from: JohnR
Quote from: DVV
Making a tweeter, any tweeter, go down to 1.4 kHz is, at best, very doubtful.

That silly duffer Linkwitz. What was he thinking, he can't get anything right.

Have you ever designed a speaker in which you asked the tweeter to go down to 1.4 kHz AND be linear in the 15-20 kHz?

No, but Linkwitz has, and people describe it using phrases such as "The purity of the midrange and high frequencies is unmistakable."

Cheerio

JohnR

Dmason · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 Dec 2003, 03:00 am »

If anyone is considering "canned" active speaker solutions, they should look hard at the Dynaudio AIR series, I sure am. Here is what you get:

Remote control of volume, crossover, digital EQ, pre set DSP patches, room correction. Multiple Direct digital inputs, Toslink, SPDIF, XLR, jitter filtered, accepting up to 24-192. Active crossovers. 2X200watt PWM amplifiers per speaker, with high frequency (750KHz) digital switching, a master speaker and a slave. Dynaudio Esotar tweeter. Unbelieveably clean sound free of speakers, bass flat to 40Hz, F3=33Hz, all in a box about the size of the COntour 1.3, all for about $2,400, delivered to your door.

I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this rig, and can easily pay for it with the sale of a couple of items. I would appreciate your kind thoughts on this offering by Dynaudio.