[toxteth ogrady]

Dmason

What are your thoughts on using the NEC as a transport? I'm assuming this is the model with the separate power supply. Also how practical is it to use?

I'm not familiar with the Dynaudio's you mentioned, but they sound too good to be true for that price, and coming from Dynaudio no less. Impressive.

[Dmason]

I got the NEC on EBay for twenty dollars. the only hassle is the caddy for CD's but it is a great tranport, CDROM, very low jitter thanks to buffered signal. I rewired the PSU and replaced the coax inputs and wiring, one hour's work total. It is a great combo for the Scott Nixon, hard to improve upon IMHO, and would in no way be out of place with the SOA Dynaudio active system.

I failed to mention Dynaudio AIR 6 system also comes with a software set up program with which the computer sees the speaker and room combination and allows user to optimize system to its environment. Beat that.

[Scott F.]

Hi Guys,

DVV Making a tweeter, any tweeter, go down to 1.4 kHz is, at best, very doubtful.........Have you ever designed a speaker in which you asked the tweeter to go down to 1.4 kHz AND be linear in the 15-20 kHz?

Just want to throw in a couple of thoughts on tweeters below 1.4k.

Quite a few come to mind actually. Most are ribbons or eletrostats. Carver, Bohlander Grabner, Apogee, Martin Logan plus a host of guys I have forgotten.

The next pile of drivers you could add to the list would be full range drivers. The obvious ones, Lowthers and Fostex but don't forget about those little Jordan drivers.

DVV, you bring up a good point about linearity. It's really tough to do. Of those I mentioned I'd bet only one or two are barely close to flat out into the 15-20k range.

Ribbons and electrostats done well are stunning. They are extremely difficult to match to a conventional paper, low-e woofer though. The crossover point and slopes get a little tricky.

Full rangers ...... well.... are something special. So special that I've dis-assembled my big tri-amped rig with an activce crossover (basically a fully active three way system) pushing the kilo-watt range in favor of .... well barely 10 watts.

Guess what, it's active too (using my AR EC-3 active crossover). I'm driving a pair of Lowthers with a 2a3 (2.5 wpc) down to 100Hz then my subs are a pair of 15" Goodmans driven by (gulp) a pair a Antique Sound Labs Wave 8's (8wpc). You guys have no idea what you are missing ..... honest.

Kevin P - Doing an active system is much more complicated and requires a tremendous amount of technical skill to do it right.

Yes and no. True, you need to know and understand speaker design but the active part is easily solved with an active crossover. There are plenty good vintage ones on the market to be had. I sort of collect them. I have a Sony TA-4300 (3 way), Pioneer SF-750 (3 way), Audio Research EC-3 (tubed 2 or 3 way), a couple of prosound opamp based (2-3 ways)(yuck), a cheap Pyramid opamp based (2-3 way)(gak) and belive it or not a BSR (2 or 3 way)(gag).

All of the active crossovers I mentioned allow crossover point adjustment (externally) and have active gain controls. This makes life (and speaker design) SO much easier. It takes all of the guesswork out of the equasion. With adjustable everything you just flick a switch or turn a dial then sit back and see if it sounds right. I may take a bit of fiddling at first to find the right levels and XO points but after it's dialed in, you are set.

This is an excellent way to go active. You can chose less expensive amps that perform well in a given frequency range. Say you have a cheap amp that has stunning and powerful bass that is say 200wpc, use it as your woofer amp. Then roll in another amp that does a great job with the mids but is a little weak on treble or bass. Same goes for the tweeter amp. The possiblities are limitless.

Now DVV, this isn't quite as active as integrating the amps into the speakers but it's pretty darned close.  

As for the sound of active, it's stunning. If you have speakers with passive crossovers and you think you have good dynamics, try bypassing the crossovers and using an active crossover with multiple amps. You'll have a heart attack.

Is it a viable approach for a guy on a budget.....nope. Is it better than most everything you'll hear (if it's done right) Absolutely.
Results......Improved clarity, dynamics, soundstage, imaging, you name it, everything improves exponentially.

Oh, and Dejan, my wife is STILL looking for you........ better not open any boxes that are ticking

[lonewolfny42]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned ATC.  They manufacture wonderful active and passive monitors.  Yes, some are extraordiarily expensive but the smaller ones are affordable.  Here is an article written by Billy Woodman, president of ATC on active versus passive and the benefits of active.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0403/index.html

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6346 ATC discussed there.

[DVV]

If anyone is considering "canned" active speaker solutions, they should look hard at the Dynaudio AIR series, I sure am. Here is what you get:

Remote control of volume, crossover, digital EQ, pre set DSP patches, room correction. Multiple Direct digital inputs, Toslink, SPDIF, XLR, jitter filtered, accepting up to 24-192. Active crossovers. 2X200watt PWM amplifiers per speaker, with high frequency (750KHz) digital switching, a master speaker and a slave. Dynaudio Esotar tweeter. Unbelieveably clean sound ...

Some momths back, I had the opportunity to briefly hear a pair of Dynaudio active speakers on the premises of their local distributor, Vox. I don't know if we are speaking about the same model, and it was brief, like say 20-25 minutes, with mostly slower music, but quite frankly, while I cannot fault them, I was not impressed either. Fair enough, but nothing special.

But I recall the price was surprisingly low for Dynaudio, 1,700 euros (app.$2K), and active as well. A price which warrants a more thorough investigation if you are in the market for such speakers.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Now DVV, this isn't quite as active as integrating the amps into the speakers but it's pretty darned close.  ...

I don't see that it makes any difference sonically, or technically for that matter, as it only requires a little more wiring. But this is also a trade-off, because having separate outboard amps allows for much better cooling and zero thermal interface with the drivers inside.

For what it's worth, I am heading in exactly the same direction myself. My present speakers, B&M Acoustics 1041, have three separate crossover boards inside and three pairs of heavy duty binding posts each. The idea is to gradually turn them from passive to active in three easy steps.

I will end up with the amps sitting beneath or beside the speakers and I too will have to have some wiring.

What really counts are the electronic crossover and associated controls (individual driver gain controls above all) and the fact that there is no power robbing, phase shifting passive crossover in between; I am assuming here that you will opt for quality electronics.

Cheers,
DVV

[WerTicus]

im going for a kit based electronic cross over... to start with see if i like the 'gist' of it and then get a 'proper' one

assuming this kit one dosnt just blow me away of course!

[TheChairGuy]

DVV et al...

I heard a lot about active vs. passive a year ago (I've only been back to this hobby for about 3 years after an absence of 6 years).

Most of my equipment has changed over in the past 3 years, including the speakers (bought some very nice Vandersteens) and changed my old and slow Superphon amp out with 2 Norh MultiAmps (ran as bridged first).  The Vandersteens improved modestly with the extra wattage and speed of the Norh's vs. the Superphon, but it still didn't sound real.

Well, I had these MultiAmps and they have active crossovers (2, 2.5 and 3.0 Khz) so I was eager to try them this way.  Not wanting to spend alot on an experiment, I seetled on some old Optimus (Radio Shack) LX-8's for $175.00 on ebay as my test subject.  I did so because it used a respectable 8" Peerless woofer (easy load) and well thought of Lineaum bipolar ribbon tweeter.  I had heard various Lineaum tweeter models at RS over the years, and while the speaker was always set up sloppily in the store and bass and midrange ALWAYS sucked, the top end was always quite sweet, natural and well integrated.

The tweeter is located on top of the cabinet and thus allows for binding direct from amp to tweeter, bypassing the need for mounting posts.  I removed the internal crossover and hooked the woofer up with a 10" piece of 10 guage cable to the mounting binding post tabs and my woofer cable to the amps.  I also filled the damped the inside walls with 5-7 lbs. of clay (rope caulk) on the cabinet walls and on the cheap stamped basket.  I found an surplus outlet with tiny powerful $0.50 neodynium magnets and added 12 each attached to the woofer magnet.  Lastly, I put some better fill in there so all standing waves were damped.  The cabinet is made of 5/8" particleboard and needed every bit of the structural enhancements..as did the cheap stamped woofer basket and wimpy magnet.  Added good 18" sand filled stands.

I turned it on about a year expecting something interesting...the Vandersteens have been in the closet since.  I played this speaker with the internal crossovers and all the damping briefly and the difference in active mode was startling!  The presentation is nearly effortless now; it almost makes you think the MultiAmps are world class...they are speedy, but not world class.  They have a wimpy hold on bass (ameliorated by lack of crossover now) and lean overall...but they cost me only $900.00 used.

The tweets are crossed over at 2.0Khz..it sound best here among the three choices.  My entry price (used Multiamps,  4' x 2 pcs Kimber 4TC for the tweeters, the speaker and all the mods including stands) was about $1500.00. But, it blew away $800.00 speakers (Vandersteen 1C's) that still needed some amp to run (I used the same speaker cable as before, now run to woofer only).  This model Vandersteen does not allow for passive biamping.  

I am now a believer in the superiority of active crossovers.  If you work hard to control many of the cost variables, you will get a superior result for similar money to passively crossed systems.  Absolutely, no doubt about it in my mind.  I don't know about lack of phase shift, impedance changes, etc...I just know the music pours out now with less noticeable restraint.  I should further note, I do not solder - one day I will learn, but this was all done without soldering skills.  So, fellow solder 'meek-lings', do not despair.

I only live about 30 minutes from Mr. Linkwicz, one day I have to meet him.

[DVV]

...
I only live about 30 minutes from Mr. Linkwicz, one day I have to meet him.

I envy you. You would be a fool not to do that, given such opportunity. People like Linkwitz are, in my experience, really and truly well worth knowing. They have proved their worth, they don't have to prove anything to anybody, and are usually genial and very willing to share both knowledge and effort.

You just can't lose.

Cheers,
DVV

[TheChairGuy]

Yeah, I am a fool.  

I work near where I live...and it's even closer to Mr. Linkwitz.  I think he' retired now from day to day work, so I should pop over to meet him some weekday.

[DVV]

Yeah, I am a fool.  

I work near where I live...and it's even closer to Mr. Linkwitz.  I think he' retired now from day to day work, so I should pop over to meet him some weekday.

Hey, come on, I was merely emphasising the point that since you said he lived near you, it would be a mistake not to try to meet the man in person. That's what I'd do if I was in your shoes.

Let's face it, Mr Linkwitz is one of the few audio greats still with us. Anybody who ever tried to design a speaker had to investigate his crossover/filter ideas - they were ground-breaking in their day, and have survived the test of time exceptionally well. And that they are popular, judge for yourself - everybody in speakers knows about him, but how many have even heard of a Smith-Papoulos filter (admittedly, these were used in tuners mostly)?

No offence intended, I assure you.

Cheers,
DVV

[TheChairGuy]

DVV,

No offense taken...I tend towards self-depricating humor   .  Tough to convey sometimes in forums.  It's accompanied by humorous gestures 'live' so it works better.

I have thought of meeting him someday...Mr. Linkwitz is so close to me; such an easy drive.

Just to soak up his abundant knowledge woudl be good; hearing his Orion would be better still I think.

[Dmason]

C'mon you two, make up; Who in their right mind would not go to meet Dr Linkwitz that lived THAT close..............

The guy is a treasure; He came to speak about five years ago at our Audio Geek gathering, after having lectured on psychoacoustics at UC, and had alot to say. He also brought the Orion predecessors, the Phoenix, (two Phoenices??) I believe they were, for us to listen to the open baffle sound...Very illuminating. I consider him a living legend, and his presence tells me my addiction is not [just] a character issue.Haaaa.

Also, FWIW, if I had more room, the Orions would be here. No question. I believe they could well qualify for the world's most dangerous speakers, and, they are active.. Find Steve Dodds for more about the Baby Orions.

[DVV]

...
I consider him a living legend, and his presence tells me my addiction is not [just] a character issue.Haaaa...

No doubt of that, he IS one of the living legends. Not too many left from the old maverick days of audio, unfortunately. There's Linkwitz, then James Bongiorno, John Curtis, Henry Kloss, Richard Sequerra and Dr Sidney Harman (although, strictly speaking, Dr Harman did not design himself, this was more the back yard of his late partner, Bernard Kardon, but he did help shape the industry).

People like Mark Levinson, Dan d'Agostino, Billy Woods et al came later, in mid-70ies, when the industry was already established. True, they helped shape it further, they had great influence on it, but I don't see them as the true pioneers.

Cheers,
DVV

[randytsuch]

Chairguy,
You active speaker project sounds interesting, I have been hesitant to mess with my speakers, but picking up a cheapo pair of RS's to play with might be fun, if you can get those kind of results.

Hi guys,
I finally read this thread, better late than never .

A few years ago I heard the active 20's, they were nice, but I guess I am not a Paradigm fan, so I passed on them.  No real faults, but they did not do it for me.

I have a long term plan to build active speakers.  I built a gainclone a couple of months ago, and it sounds better than it should, for the price and effort.  It replaced my Stan Warren modded Adcom.

I am now building a battery powered GC, and I plan to build two of them, and try passive biamping.

Eventually, I was thinking about getting a Behringer active crossover, mod it, and move to full active speakers.  This last step is the most ambitious part of my plan, not sure when I will get there, but it is nice to dream.

Somewhere in there, I was going to try going balanced, which I guess would be good with the longer IC's I will need.

Randy

[DVV]

...
Hi guys,
I finally read this thread, better late than never .

A few years ago I heard the active 20's, they were nice, but I guess I am not a Paradigm fan, so I passed on them.  No real faults, but they did not do it for me.

I have a long term plan to build active speakers.  I built a ga ...

Randy, passive biamping should give you an inkling of what you can expect from a fully active system.  The moment one separates the power gobbling bass from much moderate (power-wise) mid and tweeter, things start to clear up. Obviously, this is especially true of transients, which may not sound actually louder, but should by all rights sound cleaner and clearer, but is not limited to transients only.

In my view, a very worthwhile move. Also, it opens the door for growth later on, by purcahsing an electronic crossover, adding more amps, and in the end, going fully active in x easy steps.

Cheers,
DVV

[TheChairGuy]

Yeah Randy, the Radio Shacks are good cheap projects.

The LX-8 is the winner...the LX-5 and 4 gets more press in audiophile forums, etc, but the LX-8 is the winner in the Linaeum line.  The 4 and 5 are so tiny, yo ucan't use it for anything but  surrounds, really.  The LX-10

Remarkably, it starts out life pretty well from the Malaysian factory: the overachieving Linaeum tweeter, a decent size particle board box (about 10w x 12 deep x 16"hi), and amazingly, an 8" Peerless polyprope woofer with rubber surround.  Stamped steel frame, of course, but it's mounted on PVC piping for bracing to the back of the cabinet.  Cheap way to brace I think...don't think it's a porting technique and the PVC port goes nowhere - it's glued to the inside back cabinet wall.  Pertty nifty and cheap.

Damp that whole puppy (box and woofer frame)with caulking compund and or Black Hole 5 and you lick most of its inherent problems.  Take it 'active' with electronic crossovers and you have rediculously decent music, for cheap.  It retired my Vandersteen 1C's.

Not world class, mind you, but up to the capabilites of my modest rig and yo uget a real taste of what beter amplicaion with beter drivers in active state could sound like.  Hell, I think I'm sold.....

[DVV]

Not world class, mind you, but up to the capabilites of my modest rig and yo uget a real taste of what beter amplicaion with beter drivers in active state could sound like. Hell, I think I'm sold.....

IMO, you got that right 100%. Looking back over you mail, it strikes me that you did the right thing by the book. You took a cheap system and tweaked it so that the result is way more than the simple sum of parts.

Just one note - frankly, imagine all you like, but in truth, you have only a hazy glimpse at what decent drivers, in a decent box, with decent amplification can sound like. At the risk of being melodramatic, sit down and listen to your favorite music with really good active speakers of decent size, 3 way (yes, I know that's expensive, but it works like hell, and then some!), and you are left speechless, gaping in awe. It really is that good that it's hard to believe anything like that is even possible in a normal room.

There is, as ever, a problem (beside the price), and that is of falling in your own trap. You hear it, you are shocked, but you adjust quickly, and in a couple of months, you start thinking about acoustically treating the room. This gets you in trouble with the lady of the house if that room happens to be your living room, by definition, because you will want to replace her lovely whatever with sound damping material, or some such. Murphy's laws are in full force here.

But if you are lucky, like a few people here, and can set aside a room, a loft, or a cellar for only that purpose, then you really let go, spend days in treating the room/loft/cellar, but the rewards can be nothing short of amazing. Not guaranteed, but hey, some made it, so why not you as well?

And the story continues ...

Cheers,
DVV

[TheChairGuy]

DVV,

Yessss, this little project definitely whet my appetite for something better in the future.  As I have the handy selectable 2/2.5/3.0 crossovers built into the Norh's, I may just try another 2 way active project.

I'm thinking Peerless 8" Excels mated to the same Radio Shack Linaeum tweets (mounted topside) in a proper braced 3/4" MDF box with Black Hole 5 or similar.  Results could be very, very good.

I just took a pic of the system...can be viewed here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=149

The grey front on the RS speakers is wonderful Plast-i-Clay - God's greatest cheap gift to cheap particle board boxes!  No women in here...this 180 square feet is mine; they can have the other 2000 sq' ft'.

[  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=149 ][/img]

[TheChairGuy]

Darn, tried inserting the image in the body...still can't get the hang of it.

Oh great and all-seeing Borg - how can this be accomplished???