[sts9fan]

Stereophile blog Wes Philips
 
"This is what the Lamm ML3 Signature looks like under the hood. Clean layout and P2P wiring throughout."
And this guy is suppose to tell us what is good?

Anyone see or hear any cool stuff?
 

[Folsom]

The parts in that are not worth $10k let alone $60k that one monoblock costs.

I expect to see Teflon V-caps, S102's, and Blackgates, with R-core transformers for anything that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars. What do you think the odds are there are no silver wires inside either?

The circuit might be a good design but.... come on! Put some parts in it with a price tag like that. No one should ever want to modify a set of monoblocks that cost $120k.

[sts9fan]

Notice all the cables?  Seems to me thats where the easy money is.

[Brown]

The parts in that are not worth $10k let alone $60k that one monoblock costs.

I expect to see Teflon V-caps, S102's, and Blackgates, with R-core transformers for anything that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars. What do you think the odds are there are no silver wires inside either?

The circuit might be a good design but.... come on! Put some parts in it with a price tag like that. No one should ever want to modify a set of monoblocks that cost $120k.

Good point. So I guess we are paying for the design effort. Same old BS. They do sound marvelous though, I was quite impressed with their sound. At $20,000 they WOULD be mine. Oh well, back to work.

[Folsom]

I guess the real question is why some people's designs are worth soooo much more than others. That question especially applies to the situation that sound is subjective at large money levels. There are people out there doing design for almost free or letting people use it. Look at Pass Labs.

Peter Daniels dual monoblocks with separate PSU's $600 worth of parts $2,000 price tag, 3.3x for design
Pass Labs amplifier Alpha J $500 worth of parts, $2,000 price tag, 4x for design
Altman amplifier $100 worth of parts $1200 price tag, 12x for design.
Lamm amplifier $2,000 worth of parts (maybe) $61,000 30.1x for design.

If you consider the amount of fabrication PD would be reduced to like 2x the design, Pass Labs would be 3x, Altman would be like 11x, and Lamm would be about 28x...

Seriously.... PD and Pass Labs both have their information out for free. Both of them on subjective levels compete with Levinson gear or anything else in that high of a price range, and Pass Labs objectively competes with anything.

[Kevin Haskins]

I guess the real question is why some people's designs are worth soooo much more than others. That question especially applies to the situation that sound is subjective at large money levels. There are people out there doing design for almost free or letting people use it. Look at Pass Labs.

Peter Daniels dual monoblocks with separate PSU's $600 worth of parts $2,000 price tag, 3.3x for design
Pass Labs amplifier Alpha J $500 worth of parts, $2,000 price tag, 4x for design
Altman amplifier $100 worth of parts $1200 price tag, 12x for design.
Lamm amplifier $2,000 worth of parts (maybe) $61,000 30.1x for design.

If you consider the amount of fabrication PD would be reduced to like 2x the design, Pass Labs would be 3x, Altman would be like 11x, and Lamm would be about 28x...

Seriously.... PD and Pass Labs both have their information out for free. Both of them on subjective levels compete with Levinson gear or anything else in that high of a price range, and Pass Labs objectively competes with anything.

The answer is simple.   Some companies have more overhead than others.   There is also the matter that what something sells for, has only marginal relation with what it cost.    The value of something very simply, is what someone is willing to pay for it.    Marketing goods changes the price that people are willing to pay by a large amount.    Also, there are intangibles that go into delivering goods and services that are difficult for people to see and understand.   Run a business and you will quickly find them. 

The bottom line for Nelson and putting out the DIY information, is that he does that for reasons other than money.    It is kind of hard to expect large companies to operate like that though.   They consist of a group of people and they are not doing it as a hobby.   They are doing it to keep shareholders and investors happy.    Two totally different perspectives in terms of the people involved and there is nothing unethical about either of them.   

I'd also point out that the cost your calculating, is just the raw materials.   You are leaving out all the other cost associated with delivering goods and services.   You can ignore those other cost only for so long and they are substantial. 

[IronLion]

I guess the real question is why some people's designs are worth soooo much more than others. That question especially applies to the situation that sound is subjective at large money levels. There are people out there doing design for almost free or letting people use it. Look at Pass Labs.

Peter Daniels dual monoblocks with separate PSU's $600 worth of parts $2,000 price tag, 3.3x for design
Pass Labs amplifier Alpha J $500 worth of parts, $2,000 price tag, 4x for design
Altman amplifier $100 worth of parts $1200 price tag, 12x for design.
Lamm amplifier $2,000 worth of parts (maybe) $61,000 30.1x for design.

If you consider the amount of fabrication PD would be reduced to like 2x the design, Pass Labs would be 3x, Altman would be like 11x, and Lamm would be about 28x...

Seriously.... PD and Pass Labs both have their information out for free. Both of them on subjective levels compete with Levinson gear or anything else in that high of a price range, and Pass Labs objectively competes with anything.

The answer is simple.   Some companies have more overhead than others.   There is also the matter that what something sells for, has only marginal relation with what it cost.    The value of something very simply, is what someone is willing to pay for it.    Marketing goods changes the price that people are willing to pay by a large amount.    Also, there are intangibles that go into delivering goods and services that are difficult for people to see and understand.   Run a business and you will quickly find them. 

The bottom line for Nelson and putting out the DIY information, is that he does that for reasons other than money.    It is kind of hard to expect large companies to operate like that though.   They consist of a group of people and they are not doing it as a hobby.   They are doing it to keep shareholders and investors happy.    Two totally different perspectives in terms of the people involved and there is nothing unethical about either of them.   

I'd also point out that the cost your calculating, is just the raw materials.   You are leaving out all the other cost associated with delivering goods and services.   You can ignore those other cost only for so long and they are substantial. 

Well said Kevin. 

[Folsom]

Nelson, PD, and Altmann's stuff sells itself. Plus they probably sell more amplifiers. In the world of audiophile there are not very many actual "large companies". There just is not enough people buying the stuff to have very large companies.

Kevin you are pretty well in the same boat. You sell stuff without having to plaster Stereophile with advertisements and stuff like that, and for prices that reflect the work and parts, and some overhead. You however are not charging more than houses cost either.

There are people that WANT to pay more than necessary, and they need all the advertising and stuff convince them that it is right.

[*Scotty*]

DoS, You have failed to allow for the perceived value of the product in your calculations. A large section of the current marketplace equates the cost of the product with its intrinsic
worth. If you fail to price your product correctly you will not be considered worth auditioning by your target audience. Under pricing your product is an easy trap to fall into. If you ask too little and your product still costs too much, the low end can't afford it and upper end won't take you seriously. Also if you price it high enough you don't have to sell as many units to make a profit.
Scotty

[Kevin Haskins]

Nelson, PD, and Altmann's stuff sells itself. Plus they probably sell more amplifiers. In the world of audiophile there are not very many actual "large companies". There just is not enough people buying the stuff to have very large companies.

Kevin you are pretty well in the same boat. You sell stuff without having to plaster Stereophile with advertisements and stuff like that, and for prices that reflect the work and parts, and some overhead. You however are not charging more than houses cost either.

There are people that WANT to pay more than necessary, and they need all the advertising and stuff convince them that it is right.

I'd LIKE to charge more than houses cost.   I could then retire and do something useful with my life.   

I'm also not selling much more than enough to just cover the bills.   It isn't a long-term stable situation.   It will either change or I'll do something else.   

[Folsom]

Well I guess morally I have a problem catering to the rich morons that have to spend enough money to feel good .

There might be a situation that not as much audio stuff needs to exists as does now .

[jrebman]

Ah, so that's the secret -- just take any old design, throw in black gates, sb102s, r-core transformers, teflon caps, and silver wire, and presto, a stereophile Clas AAA component. :: :: ::

How about as an exercise you go design a SE GM70 amp, and then go look for an appropriate transformer for it -- think there's no more than $2k in parts in there?

[Folsom]

I never said I can make a precise measurement on parts cost. I just expect really high quality components in something that cost over $20k you know?

Not all designs will benefit from that list of components, but they are expensive. I just expect to see something with some kind of price on it in things that cost that much.

I mean would you pay $400k for a car that looked fast? It made you feel fast? or would you want it to have more than a Corvette standard of parts in it? I think most people buying Enzo's and stuff like that want it to do something other than give a perception of being fast and making you feel fast as you cruise around at 25-35mph in the city.

[jrebman]

Me? I'd listen first, not look at the parts.  Like my favorite amplifiers in the world, the Lamm ML2.1s, I know there's a plain ol' hammond choke in there.  Do I care?  Would it make me feel better if it were an Alpha Core?  Nope.

As for cars, there are plenty of sexy looking cars that don't drive or perform worth a damn, and plenty of butt-ugly ones that rock.  Again, I'd get in it and drive it before looking under the hood.

With cars, the only way to know is to drive them, with amplifiers, you just have to listen to them.

P.S. I'm not defending the $140k price tag -- ridiculous in my book, just as is the $28k for the ML2.1s, but if it sounds as good as it does, regardless of whether or not it is chock full of audionut approved boutique parts, and is reliable in the long term, that's fine with me.

In all honesty, I'd have no electrolytic caps of any type in any all-out amplifier and no caps or resistors in the signal path.

I've said my piece.

-- Jim

[Folsom]

I figure it more like I would be more likely to purchase something if it sounded good as opposed to making the price outrageous because of that factor.

I do agree, if it does not sound good it is a waste of time. However I think it is ok to offer something that sounds amazing, like way more so out of stuff in the same price range (if somethings where priced better). This would also drive people to make new advancements more as they would be competing a little bit, instead of just shooting for profit.

I would never suggest that anyone put themselves in the hole selling a product, but lets try to keep the exponential pricing down a little bit for the reason of sanity. I do not care if something I prefer the sound of is made out of fruit loops, but I sure as hell do not expect to pay platinum loop prices for it, how about copper loop.

If you love music and want people to enjoy it you probably are not about pricing things into the stratosphere unless it really does cost that much.

[JoshK]

Stereophile blog Wes Philips
 
"This is what the Lamm ML3 Signature looks like under the hood. Clean layout and P2P wiring throughout."
And this guy is suppose to tell us what is good?

Anyone see or hear any cool stuff?
 

Is it just me, or does something not jive with that statement?  They say P2P wiring throughout.  Um, that is one big ass PCB and there are traces on it.  It is not just for holding the components.  Not that I think it makes any difference, but where do they come up with this stuff?  Just because they use flying leads from big parts to PCB, doesn't make it "P2P throughout". 

BTW, I can't tell anything about the circuit from the picture, but the the parts and build looks pretty pedestrian to my eyes.

[Kevin Haskins]

Stereophile blog Wes Philips
 
"This is what the Lamm ML3 Signature looks like under the hood. Clean layout and P2P wiring throughout."
And this guy is suppose to tell us what is good?

Anyone see or hear any cool stuff?
 

Is it just me, or does something not jive with that statement?  They say P2P wiring throughout.  Um, that is one big ass PCB and there are traces on it.  It is not just for holding the components.  Not that I think it makes any difference, but where do they come up with this stuff?  Just because they use flying leads from big parts to PCB, doesn't make it "P2P throughout". 

BTW, I can't tell anything about the circuit from the picture, but the the parts and build looks pretty pedestrian to my eyes.

I'd rather than the PCB than P2P anyway.   

 

[Imperial]

Helen of Sparta was so beautiful that she had masses of suitors, after all she was to give to her husband to be the right to be king of Sparta (Because Castor and Pollux were to die, suddenly)
Confronted with such beauty, man will pay any price to own...
ML3 being of but moderate beauty to behold, even on the inside, be it even not of the best family...
But then she talked this woman, and you know what, even this pleased...
If it is of TRUE beauty, it is for each man to choose, if it is worth the asking price...

Should the opportunity ever arise to have beauty at a lower price, by all means, grab it!
I'm sure the chance will come!

Home, holding the shield, or on it...

ML3 , if I could buy them, I would not! My only wish is that I never hear them sing, then woe to me!!!

I tell you, I've met some beautiful women in my time... but not all of them spoke with beauty.
A few did, and I went through fire and water for them... sanity not included, price included, but I still cherish my loss!!! It was ever so worth all of it!!!

Imperial

[bricktop]

I'd actually prefer an amplifier design that wasn't very critical of the parts.  It's usually what I shoot for when I make something.

[zacster]

I'd actually prefer an amplifier design that wasn't very critical of the parts.  It's usually what I shoot for when I make something.

While I agree with that statement, I'd think for the price of this thing that super-premium parts would be used.  Hammond makes good transformers and chokes, but I'd look for some  boutique choke hand-wound by virgins.